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Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Some queries about the Movement rules. Let me know if I've got it right! rss

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Michael Deacon
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EDIT AFTER THE CONVERSATION: This discussion was to clarify some of the movement rules.

This may help explain things further as a kind of summary:

A single activation will activate all the units at one location (a 'Stack")

All activated units in the original location can move independently from each other (some go one way and others another way) but must form their own unique 'stack' to cross a road (or highway) as each road can only be traversed once per movement phase.

All activated units automatically get a base move of 1 space or could possibly have a base move of 2 with Leadership present (a Leader unit, a castle or your home city) in the original location. This can be modified by Highway travel and a possible force march at the end of movement.
After the original stack is split into unique stacks in preparation to move each unique 'stack' may receive a movement penalty based on its size (number of units).

A single card (that is discarded) can Force March (an additional +1 to their movement value) all units in a 'stack' that started moving together and will end moving together (whether that be 1 to 16 units). This is usually done after the blocks movement value has reached zero (I think it makes the most sense this way). In other words after a stack has reached its full distance they can travel one more space for a discard.


If the movement point total comes out at 0 before movement they may still be able to move if they are travelling down a Highway or you choose to Force March them to their new location.

Matt C has clarified that it is okay for units to split into smaller stacks when arriving at a new location and these stacks may still move independently of each other.

Matt C's Quote regarding 'y' movement (or 'forking')

'Forking, or 'y' movement, is perfectly acceptable in this game.

I have 4 units at A, which is connected to B, which in turn is connected to C1 and C2. I can initiate movement at A, and move all of the blocks to B, whereupon half of them continue to C1 and the other half continue to C2.

Here is an example of movement:
8 units are activated in a one location (cost 0 cards).
They all receive a base move value of 1. There is a leader present (you announce the presence of the leader, you do not need to show or say which leader it is) so they all now have 2 movement points. You want 5 to travel north and 3 to travel south so you split them into 2 new unique stacks. The group of 5 gets a Large Force penalty of -1 so all the blocks in that group now have a value of 1. The other group of 3 still all have 2.

If the group of 5 make their first move down a Highway they may all continue to move to another location as long as they are still travelling down the Highway (+1 for moving only on the Highway). At this point the group of 5 units all now have 0 movement points. You could (if you wanted to) choose to split the stack again into 3 and 2 units. By discarding a card you could Force March the stack of 3 down one road and discarding another card you could Force March the other stack (of 2) down another.
The group three have 2 movement points to spend so could potentially travel 4 spaces total (with Highway bonus plus a Force March). They could even split into two separate stacks (of one each) and move off in different directions after moving.
The movement would be now complete for all of the units of the original activated stack. If you had played a card at the beginning of your turn (to activate 3 stacks) you could now activate another stack of blocks.


Note : I have called the moving groups of blocks 'stacks' to be consistent with the rules. It may be easier to call the the units at the activated location the 'stack' and the collective blocks that move down a road together 'groups'. This distinction makes explaining the movement rules a little easier.

Have fun!


MY ORIGINAL POST : Hello I'd like to check if I've got some of these Movement rules correct.

A 'stack of units' is all the units in one location at the beginning of the movement phase correct?

When a stack is activated the units can move off in different directions as 'groups of units'. (Each separate group as it first leaves the activated stack is counted for the large movement penalty not the stack as a whole right?).

Now can the group of units also split off in different directions again after it has set off moving (two units leave together down one road then one goes one way the other going down a different road)? And would this negate the possibility of using force march on either of these units?

Likewise if you drop off units you also cannot use a force march?

Is this all correct??
Let me know if I've got it right.







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Christopher Donovan
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I believe there can only be one "origin point" per activation, so a group could not move out of a location and then split up into more groups going to different locations. Each group coming out of one location must finish its move as a group. Otherwise you have it right. Remember you can't use one length of road or highway more than once on your turn. It can get pretty tricky trying to get your blocks where you want them to go without spending a lot of cards.
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Michael Deacon
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Firstly, is it okay to move some units from an activated stack one way and some another? Or can you only move one group of units from a stack.

The example in the rule book doesn't show this. Also the rule 'Blocks which begin the phase together need not travel on the same roads, nor finish their move together' implies that you can make several groups of units from an activated stack and send them off in different directions.

Secondly if this is okay to do, can a group of units split up again after already moving a space (or several spaces) together?
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Kris Moulton
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My understanding was that a "stack" was the set of blocks you actually move. The rest of the origin stack would be a different stack for movement purposes. The large stack movement penalty would be if you moved more than 4 blocks together. And if you split the stack and moved some blocks one way and some another that would be 2 stacks.
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Christopher Donovan
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Only the designer can speak with authority, but here's how I interpret it...

Quote:
7.3.1 Movement in General
The source of a move is a single location. From that location, all of
one player’s blocks (that did not Muster that turn) may be moved,
up to the limits as set forth below. Blocks move along roads from
one location to another. Blocks which begin the phase together
need not travel on the same roads, nor finish their move together.
Movement must follow these restrictions:
• No block may be part of more than one move per turn.
• A stack must complete its movement before another stack may
move.
• No road segment may be traversed by more than one stack per
Movement Phase.


A "stack" is not defined, I take it to mean a group of blocks moving out of a location along a single road, not all blocks occupying a location activated for movement. The language could use some clarification.

Each "stack" of blocks you move out of an activated location can go any direction you wish, so long as it does not traverse a road previously used by another "stack" in the same turn. You must finish moving each "stack" before moving another "stack". One location can send out multiple "stacks" in multiple directions.

The second point, "a stack must complete its movement before another stack may move", combined with the third point, "No road segment may be traversed by more than one stack per Movement Phase", seems to indicate that you may NOT move blocks out of an activated location to another location and then split them up into two (or more) "stacks" to continue movement individually all in one activation. At best you can simply drop off blocks along the way, and you may not move one "stack" followed by another along the same path because of the road limit.

Hope that helps..
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Mary Weisbeck
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7.1 In General
"A stack is all of the blocks in a single location."
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Michael Deacon
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To call the group of units moving a 'stack' as well as all the units in a single location confuses things a bit.

It might make more sense to call the activated units in a single location a 'stack' and the units moving 'groups' (moving from the stack). Or am I missing something here?
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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I've only played against Chris (zerosum) but I read the rules before playing and I came away with the same interpretation of the rules as he had, namely:

You can activate a location with a large group of blocks with 1 point. These blocks can group up however they like to form 1 or more stacks. Each stack moves independently of other stacks with the penalties and bonuses for movement applying to each stack separately. (major road, leadership, largeness, force march).

If I was to take this to it's logical conclusion, I would say that leadership derived from a leader must be in the stack moving. (i.e., each stack claiming leadership to move farther needs to have a leader in it or a castle at their starting space) I'm not sure that's how we were interpreting the rules in my previous games.

As for the forking I would say you couldn't do that because to do that 2 stacks would have had to use the same road segment. And the rules say you move one stack and then another, so you couldn't move 2 stacks together for a bit and then split up. Dropping units off is called out as allowed explicitly in the rules.
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Michael Deacon
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If you call the units moving 'stacks' the rules then imply that for paying one card you can only move three 'stacks' of units (i.e if there was a location with 6 units and you moved 2 here 2 there and 2 elsewhere this would use up all of your moves).

It seems that the intention of the rules is to activate a whole (lets call it a 'stack') stack of units and then you can move the units off down different roads from the start location. This would only count as one activation.

It seems like most people are agreeing that you can separate the 'stack' to move to different locations without it using up all of your moves.

I guess the only final question was whether once the units are moving together can they move off down different roads (let's say they wanted to share the first move together to Kyoto and move off down different highways.
 
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Kris Moulton
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For the leadership bonus, the rules make it sound like the leader only has to be present where the blocks started from, not necessarily in the moving stack.

Leadership: Blocks that begin the move in the presence of leadership
(7.3.4) may move +1 location.
 
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Michael Deacon
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Yes I agree the leader only has to be present and does not have to move with units. Also I read in another post that the leader does not have to be shown to the opponent only declared that there is a presence of a leader in the 'stack' to get the bonus.
 
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Michael Deacon
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Any word from Matt C about the unit movement??

I'd be happy to know what the final say is.
 
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Christopher Donovan
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sodaklady wrote:
7.1 In General
"A stack is all of the blocks in a single location."


Hmmm. Maybe forking is allowed then? Looks like we need a rules clarification...
 
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Michael Deacon
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Yes I think that it matters in this game because (I believe) each road can only be covered once by a group of travelling units per movement phase.

You may want to get as many units over a road as possible before it is closed for the phase, and then you may want them to travel in different directions.

Anyway I'm sure this will be cleared up soon!



Also I did just have a look at the Napoleon block game (Columbia Games) movement rules. In that game the units starting in the same location are called a 'group' so I can see how the terminology could get a little confusing for those who have experience of other block games. In that game the roads have a limit to the number of blocks that can travel down them after a certain amount they just close off for the rest of the turn.

 
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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forking would really mess up the idea of stack size restricting movement. If I had an 8 block stack start down the highway move 1 space and then want to split up and go two separate ways do they then get an extra movement? It seems like this would imagine wholesale rules that aren't really present in the rules.

I think it's a unfortunate way of using the word stack in two different ways. One for a group of blocks moving together down a road, and two for a group of blocks starting in the same place.
 
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Christopher Donovan
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i7dealer wrote:
forking would really mess up the idea of stack size restricting movement. If I had an 8 block stack start down the highway move 1 space and then want to split up and go two separate ways do they then get an extra movement? It seems like this would imagine wholesale rules that aren't really present in the rules.

I think it's a unfortunate way of using the word stack in two different ways. One for a group of blocks moving together down a road, and two for a group of blocks starting in the same place.


Good point.
 
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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All that being said, I would love to see clarification. Any cross pollinators see anything about this on say CSW or GMT's site?
 
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Michael Deacon
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Yes, it could be useful for rules explanation to have one term for the units activating together and another for those that are moving together.

It says in the rules ' To each block's movement capacity, apply a size penalty according to the largest group in which it travelled during it's move'. This may only apply to the dropping off of units but it does imply that units may not travel all of their movement together.

In your example if the forking were legal all of units would get base of one , plus one for the leadership (if present), minus one for the big group. After their first move all units would have to stop unless the first move was a Highway and they could continue down a Highway (plus one more move) or they were all force marching all together.

If there was no leadership present (in the group of eight) the units would have a base of one, minus one for the big group, plus one for making the entire move down the Highway. They would have to stop in the next space. If there was no Highway they could not move at all (unless the player chose to force march the eight units together).

In the case of travelling down the Highway with Leadership present this is where the units could possibly go separate ways.

It seems as if we all agree a stack can be separated and go several ways.
Also a travelling group does not always have to move the full move together (see rule above). It only comes down to whether the travelling units can go separate ways after travelling together or drop offs only are allowed.
 
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musici wrote:
A 'stack of units' is all the units in one location at the beginning of the movement phase correct?

Yes.


musici wrote:
When a stack is activated the units can move off in different directions as 'groups of units'. (Each separate group as it first leaves the activated stack is counted for the large movement penalty not the stack as a whole right?).

Yes.


musici wrote:
Now can the group of units also split off in different directions again after it has set off moving (two units leave together down one road then one goes one way the other going down a different road)?

Yes.


musici wrote:
And would this negate the possibility of using force march on either of these units?

Good question - Rule 7.3.3 states: "Only one force march can be in effect for any given block at a time". I've never known what this really means as I've never needed to apply it to split groups. As written, the original group could not force march because it isn't ending together. But if you split off and form a new group from that - it seems you can discard and force march it (so long as it starts, moves and ends together).

musici wrote:
Likewise if you drop off units you also cannot use a force march?

Not the original group, as it hasn't ended together.
 
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Christopher Donovan
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Adam Parker wrote:
musici wrote:
Now can the group of units also split off in different directions again after it has set off moving (two units leave together down one road then one goes one way the other going down a different road)?

Yes.


This is not clear in the rules, we need clarification from the designer. The point i7dealer brought up about forking complicating the Force Size movement penalty in a fairly ugly way gives weight to the opposite interpretation.
 
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Christopher Donovan
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Although...

Quote:
To each block’s movement capacity, apply a size penalty according
to the largest group in which it travelled during its move.


I guess a group which forks would bestow the penalty appropriate to its size to each offshoot group's entire move. I wish the example of play covered all this.
 
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Adam Parker
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Zerosum wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
musici wrote:
Now can the group of units also split off in different directions again after it has set off moving (two units leave together down one road then one goes one way the other going down a different road)?

Yes.


This is not clear in the rules, we need clarification from the designer. The point i7dealer brought up about forking complicating the Force Size movement penalty in a fairly ugly way gives weight to the opposite interpretation.


Hi Chris - it is in the rules:

"Blocks which begin the phase together need not travel on the same roads, nor finish their move together."

There's nothing ugly about force size modifiers.

If I have a stack of 8 blocks and I move 3 blocks west and move 5 blocks east: The 5 blocks get penalized for moving in a group >4. If I break 2 blocks off from that to move further, those 2 blocks remain penalized for originally being part of the larger group.

The 3 blocks that move west however, are not penalized - their largest movement group was less than 5.

(Weird - my last sentence keep getting cut off!).
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Michael Deacon
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Hi Adam.

Great. Thanks for the answers. If you think it is okay to split your units in different directions after they have already moved together I'll play that way.

Maybe we could get some clarification on the Force March rules.

I've taken the rules to mean that as long as a group of units move completely together from start to finish they can apply a force march bonus for an extra card. If they split up along the way or drop off units they are not eligible for force march (not totally sure on this).

A ruling from Matt C would be great.

 
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Hey Chris, Matt's answer was actually at Consimworld, post #79: http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?8@205.6q9ccJloGYh.0@.1dd15e...

Someone asked and Matt confirmed my answers below

Quote:
What if the stack of 8 splits, and moves away in two groups of 4 each: Is there a movement penalty?

No. Each block is penalized according to the largest "group" in which it moves (7.3.5 last sentence). See also Example A.

So if 8 blocks start together, 3 can move east as a group without an overstacking penalty. The other 5 can move north as a group and will be penalized for moving as a group >4. If 2 blocks then split off from that to move further, they still suffer its penalization despite ending up as only a group of 2.

Quote:
Is this one move or two?

1 move - as only 1 stack was originally activated: (7.1 - A stack is all of the blocks in a single location); and (7.3.1 - The source of a move is a single location... Blocks which begin... need not travel on the same roads...).

A corollary of this, is that say that stack of 8 wanted to move east, but use the same initial road - and then split into two 4-block groups for dispersed movement further on, all blocks would need to be penalized a location's movement - for moving first as a group of 8. This is because only 1 stack may use any given road segment once each turn (7.3.1). A group of 4 therefore, could not follow another group of any number, using the same road section.

*********
The thing I'm finding about this game is that, yes, when I re-read some rules I begin to doubt myself. And I've already learned one huge thing about seiges this week.
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Michael Deacon
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I'm interested in a consistent set of rulings so we can all play the same game. If I teach this game to a friend I know we are playing the same game with the same rules as Adam (for instance). If I had met someone who had played before we could get to the fun of playing the game and not have rules disagreements as we had both learned the game differently.

Also I don't like it when I bring a game to a game night and I don't know all the rules!!
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