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Subject: Thoughts on rules rss

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Lee Fisher
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From rules at a glance.

You have a set number of action points (time points) to use through the game, though you can (re)gain more. This isn't really similar to Thebes, as the time has no impact on turn order. Though if you use all your time before the game is over you are finished.

Deduction is a bit "clue"ish where you try to find what character cards players are holding.

You don't really play any character and you can move any on the board, also like clue. Though only one person can generally activate a given character per turn (and use their ability).

One person will get the aspect of "Fenrir" and have a new winning condition almost halfway through the game. It isn't really a "traitor", as it isn't competitive co-operative anyway (though everyone can lose). This seems mainly to disincentivize having the organ placed too early?

The organ placement is slightly Tobagoish.

Turn order is determined by Auction (of time points). You choose a position to bid on and whoever wins gets that position. Some positions have certain advantages or disadvantages, which are also varied by the event cards.

The gears control what actions/movement area available.

Edit: I think I meant to say co-operative above.
 
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Ian Kelly
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lfisher wrote:
Deduction is a bit "clue"ish where you try to find what character cards players are holding.

You don't really play any character and you can move any on the board, also like clue. Though only one person can generally activate a given character per turn (and use their ability).


This part feels a bit more like Mr. Jack than Cluedo to me.

Quote:
Turn order is determined by Auction (of time points). You choose a position to bid on and whoever wins gets that position. Some positions have certain advantages or disadvantages, which are also varied by the event cards.


This scares me a bit. Not that I mind auctions, but I don't want to spend three minutes each round conducting a full series of them on something mundane like turn order. That's one of the things that kind of kills Factory Manager for me.
 
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Julian Clarke
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Peristarkawan wrote:
This scares me a bit. Not that I mind auctions, but I don't want to spend three minutes each round conducting a full series of them on something mundane like turn order. That's one of the things that kind of kills Factory Manager for me.


I've just read the rules & I would not see the auction as taking more than a minute to sort out 4 positions. You start with 45 time slots (though you can accumulate more) to last 11 turns. That's only an average of 4 per turn, so most auctions are likely to be "I'll bid 0 to go second" followed by 3 passes, etc. You won't always want to be first.

Of course, until I've played it, this is purely speculation, (as were your fears). I am looking forward to trying it at Essen. This is my No 1 interest this year.

As another point, I don't think turn order in this is as mundane as most games, but again, pure speculation.

My take so far, is that it fits on the family end of the Euros spectrum.
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Juan F T
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Well, I like what I have found in the rules.

It is a bit more light than I thought, but that would make it a more "family" game, since rules are quite simple to follow.

Interested to see how players interact during the game, the total playtime (it seems to be a short game), and possible strategies and replayability.

The only rule that let me thinking is a paragraph about separating the cards a player has seen during his turn, since he can look at those cards more than once. Well, that will help you not to look at the same cards twice. But it would be fun that there is a chance that you see the same thing twice... too bad! devil
 
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Paolo Vallerga
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Hallo, my english is not really so good to understand completely your senences, so I try to answer to this... And probably Marco will answer to the others

lfisher wrote:

One person will get the aspect of "Fenrir" and have a new winning condition almost halfway through the game. It isn't really a "traitor", as it isn't competitive anyway (though everyone can lose). This seems mainly to disincentivize having the organ placed too early?


I think rally really no. Place the ogan is not really the first thing that Player want to do... You win if you know who is the Chosen one, If you have composed the music and where is the pipe organ... but If you place the Organ too fast you probably gifts victory to another player... The organ placement is the last things and a player place the tile to decide the position of the organ only when he is sure to know the chosen one identity and you have the music composed (or you are near to do this)... for this reason Fenrir is really really happy to create obstacles to the other players... playing for fourth... or discovering the choosen one before the others to kill him... I don't think the fenrir role are disincentived... I hope to have explained correctly my point of view

lfisher wrote:

The organ placement is slightly Tobagoish

Tobagoish?????
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Paolo Vallerga
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Hav0k wrote:

The only rule that let me thinking is a paragraph about separating the cards a player has seen during his turn, since he can look at those cards more than once. Well, that will help you not to look at the same cards twice. But it would be fun that there is a chance that you see the same thing twice... too bad! devil

Yes... I agree with you... i'm a bad boy!... but I think that helps the rhythm of the game... discover the choosen one in a reasonable time helps the game time! and unlucky players like me!!!
 
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Lee Fisher
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Biggossa wrote:
Hallo, my english is not really so good to understand completely your senences, so I try to answer to this... And probably Marco will answer to the others

lfisher wrote:

One person will get the aspect of "Fenrir" and have a new winning condition almost halfway through the game. It isn't really a "traitor", as it isn't competitive anyway (though everyone can lose). This seems mainly to disincentivize having the organ placed too early?


I think rally really no. Place the ogan is not really the first thing that Player want to do... You win if you know who is the Chosen one, If you have composed the music and where is the pipe organ... but If you place the Organ too fast you probably gifts victory to another player... The organ placement is the last things and a player place the tile to decide the position of the organ only when he is sure to know the chosen one identity and you have the music composed (or you are near to do this)... for this reason Fenrir is really really happy to create obstacles to the other players... playing for fourth... or discovering the choosen one before the others to kill him... I don't think the fenrir role are disincentived... I hope to have explained correctly my point of view

lfisher wrote:

The organ placement is slightly Tobagoish

Tobagoish?????


Thanks Paolo, I think I understand a bit better now.

Organ placement seems a little like Tobago in narrowing down the placement. That is not a bad thing.
 
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marco valtriani
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Hi!
I read the discussion some days ago, and since you're basically saying right things I was not answering
But now that Paolo summoned me, let me say a couple things...

Deduction: For "deduction" I mean "find an information subtracting elements from a total". Well, there are two levels of "deduction" in 011.
The "major" one is the mechanism of looking at players' hands to find out who is NOT the Chosen One. This is a typical "Deduction by Elimination". I liked to put in some direct control of the action: an "offensive" one (you may use resources to look at more cards) and a "defensive" one (you can keep your cards forcing your opponents to spend more resources to know what you already know). These features are vital in 011, they are the key to make choices while playing. And choices are, imho, fun.
The "minor" use of deduction is the one about Fenrir. In this case, I opted for a "Deduction by Behaviour" mechanism: you can spot the Wolf God just looking to your opponents' moves. Finding who is Fenrir is not needed, but I think it's useful if you plan to put a spoke in his wheels.

Character selection: I didn't thought about Mr. Jack while designing the game, but it is a comparison I like a lot
I really enjoy Bruno Cathala games and I like the way he design them, and I think he and Maublanc made some really smart choices with Mr. Jack.
Anyway, there are a lot of adventure games with a "first person view" (and a lot of them are really amusing), but I tried do make players more as "directors" than as "actors". The entire project is filled with a "movie" flavour, and that includes the game: I thought that would be a nice idea to have players move around characters just like they were the directors of a movie.

Fenrir: Again, there are two interpretative keys for the Wolf God. The first is merely "mechanic": as Lee Fisher said, it prevents players to find the Armonium too early, simply because is not wise to find something that may be an obstacle to your victory if you became Fenrir. The second one, as you may argue from Paolo's words, is that it adds an unpredictable element that alters gameplay and give a boost to suspance. As anything in the game is something you can deal with planning your moves and changing your tactics. And I think it's really enjoying, but I admit that I have a slightly unbalanced point of view

Auction: Auctions are not "slow", even if they are a vital part of the game. The turn order is the key to perform actions efficiently because it lets you to choose the Character you want, and to take "bonuses" from Events. They won't take so long because you always know how may Time Points you and your opponents have, and you will find really quickly if you can overbid, or if you must pass.
Anyway, the main part of the game is using Gears and Characters on the map, and not bidding for the turn order

The Tobagoish Armonium: Lee, I understand what you mean. I don't know Tobago really well but it's still a "Deduction by Elimination", and what you said is clearly not "a bad thing" but a "consideration" (as everything you wrote).
Apart from the squares instead of hexes, and the way you place the elements that identify the position of the "item", I think that the main difference between the two games is that in Tobago this is the "core mechanism", the engine of the game, while in 011 the core mechanism are the selection of Characters and obviously the Gears.
So, simply, apart from technicalities, the main difference is simply why are you doing the whole thing.

Well, I like these discussions a lot, so keep on talking
And obviously if you want to ask something... Just do it.
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Rodolphe Duhil
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I've just read the rules and I'd really like to play the game. The rules are simple, the gears are a great idea, and there is a lot of atmosphere!
I wonder though how the endgame is if the incarnation of Fenrir fails to win when attempting to go for victory. The other players may still lose but they have one less worry.
 
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Michal U
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So fenrir player has to keep his finger crossed for drawing 2 wolves from the special tokens?
 
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marco valtriani
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...maybe.
Or maybe not

There are a lot of ways to "dig" tiles (and there are many "Marks of the Wolf" on the tiles). You may manage to draw 6-8 tiles in a single Hour without spending a single Clue.

When I play, I usually tend to draw some tiles regularly (because they're devilishly useful), and I also try to keep the ones with the Marks of the Wolf, playing the others. I'm really unlucky, so for me it's not wise to wait until the last two turns and then dig frantically hoping to get my Marks

As other things in the game, there is a bit of luck, but it's up to each player to control it by spending Clues.
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