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Subject: Should there be 2 VP markers? rss

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mark selleck
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Just playing my first game, the 3rd scenario bonfire of the NKVD.
the marker is placed on 20 on the victory track on the russian side.

I understand that when the russians lose an objective they drop VP and the germans gain but there is not a second VP marker to record when the germans take an objective, kill an enemy or exit a unit.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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The VP marker is always the NET VPs for both players.

So if the marker is at 20 VPs Russian side and the Russians lose an objective (say worth 5 points), the VP marker is adjusted to 15 VPs Russian Side. And then the Germans gain 5 VPs, the VP marker is adjusted another 5 points toward the German player for 10 VPs Russian Side.

By observing the location of the single VP marker, you have an idea which side is winning by the revealed victory points. (Hidden VPs might change the total when they are revealed at the end of the game, if not sooner.)
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mark selleck
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So lets say if the germans gain all the objectives the VP marker would be at the 0 space (and if for some unlikly reason no units were eliminated or exited it would be a draw?? even though the germans gained 20 VP)



So do you not move the VP marker when units are eliminated or exit the board, are they just added up at the end of the game?
 
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Russ Williams
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jesters_race wrote:
So do you not move the VP marker when units are eliminated or exit the board, are they just added up at the end of the game?

Yes, you move it. The general VP procedure is very simple:

If something causes a player to gain N VPs, move the VP marker N spaces toward his side.

If something causes a player to lose N VPs, move the VP marker N spaces toward the opponent's side.

Note that when an N-point objective changes hands, that means the previous owner loses N points and the new owner gains N points, i.e. the VP marker will be moved N+N spaces toward the new owner's side.
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Richard Pardoe
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jesters_race wrote:
So do you not move the VP marker when units are eliminated or exit the board, are they just added up at the end of the game?


Of course, you add these points at the time they are gained. As Russ points out, the VP chit is moved N points towards that players side of the VP track.

Edit - the only VPs added at the end of the game are those VPs that are under the Secret Objectives.
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mark selleck
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ok atm in doing a solo play of Bonfire of the NKVD.
The germans have taken objective 3 so the russians lose 1 point and germans gain 1 so VP marker at 18 on russian side (even though adding up all the objectives the russians have they really have 19 VP points)

Then the germans have eliminated a russian squad, so germans gain 2 VP. So the Vp marker is moved to 16 on the russians side (even though they really have 19 VP after adding all the objectives)
 
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Richard Pardoe
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jesters_race wrote:
So lets say if the germans gain all the objectives the VP marker would be at the 0 space (and if for some unlikly reason no units were eliminated or exited it would be a draw?? even though the germans gained 20 VP)



In Scenario #3 - if the Germans gain all the objectives (and no units have been eliminated or exited and TIME! has not advanced), the VP marker would be at 20 VPs on the German side. The Russian player would lose 20 VPs AND the German player would gain 20 VPs for a total change of 40 VPs.

(Don't forget that the Russian player as Scenario defender gains 1 VP at each time trigger, but I have removed that from the math above.)

As stated under 6.3.2 - if the game ends at 0 VPs, the winner is the player with the initiative card. For victory purposes, it does not matter how many VPs are gained by each player, but the total number of VPs a player has. This scenario gives the Russian player additional VPs as a "defense" that must be overcome by the German player. The Russian player is trying to hold on and can trade bodies and objectives for time trying to keep the VP total on his side of the track. If he does so, he wins the game. He does NOT need to "outgain" the German player in VPs to win.



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Richard Pardoe
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jesters_race wrote:
The germans have taken objective 3 so the russians lose 1 point and germans gain 1 so VP marker at 18 on russian side

Correct

Quote:
(even though adding up all the objectives the russians have they really have 19 VP points)

As I noted above, the single VP token is tracking NET VPs - or the difference between the two sides. Yes, the Russians have 19 VPs for their 4 Objectives and the Germans have 1 VP for their objective. That is a NET 18 Russian VPs just as the track indicates.

Quote:
Then the germans have eliminated a russian squad, so germans gain 2 VP. So the Vp marker is moved to 16 on the russians side (even though they really have 19 VP after adding all the objectives)

Again - the Russians have 19 VPs for the objectives and the Germans have 3 VPs for the objective and eliminated unit. That is a NET 16 Russian VPs just as the track indicates.

The track is keeping track of the difference in the two totals not the absolute of any one player.
 
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mark selleck
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ok no worries,
Im just not used to scoring VP's this way so just had the change the way i was thinking about it.
 
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Confusion Under Fire
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Also remember that VPs are not just objective related you can gain or lose VPs for eliminating enemy units, exiting friendly units, some Actions gain you vps for winning melees and some events gain you VPs for the number of objectives at a particular point in time. The passing of time for the defender will also gain you a vp and then of course exit and elimination VPs can be doubled with the correct objective chits.

I would also guess that in most of the games I have played the winner was not decided on the VP count but on the amount of casualties lost.
 
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mark selleck
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yea thats why i was having a hard time with the VP marker as im use to scoring a side as objectives are taken and enemies are eliminated for each side etc...
So that you end up with for example germans 10 russians 8 at the end of a game.

but it looks like CC:E is more like a tug of war marker
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Mark Buetow
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jesters_race wrote:
yea thats why i was having a hard time with the VP marker as im use to scoring a side as objectives are taken and enemies are eliminated for each side etc...
So that you end up with for example germans 10 russians 8 at the end of a game.

but it looks like CC:E is more like a tug of war marker


Germans having the VP marker on the "2" on their side is the same thing.
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mark selleck
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Thanks for all your help guys finished my first solo play through of Bonfire of the NKVD.

Germans won, just. forced the soviets to surrender just in the nick of time to as the next card the germans were due to draw was a time card (which would have been used as another fire order was going to be used if the first was unsucsesful) and the time marker was one space from the sudden death marker with the soviets at 1 VP.

Pretty sure i played all the rules correctly as I kept stoping to check the rule book and if i didnt understand I posted on here before contuining to play. But thanks everyone for responding you have healped me learn this game quickly.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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jesters_race wrote:
the time marker was one space from the sudden death marker with the soviets at 1 VP.

And since you need to roll less than 7 to end the game on the sudden death roll - only a 41% chance of actually ending the game. So a good chance the game might have continued. But nice to get the dead cert of a surrender victory.

Glad you enjoyed the game. Any more questions? Just ask, we are ready to help and answer.

 
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mark selleck
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well i will play a few more scenarios solo before face to face so that I have the rules stuck in my head and makes teaching another new player a faster process. (not as much down time looking up rules slowing the game down, as i find this turns some new players off games)

will try sceanrio 4 next i think
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RPardoe wrote:
jesters_race wrote:
the time marker was one space from the sudden death marker with the soviets at 1 VP.

And since you need to roll less than 7 to end the game on the sudden death roll - only a 41% chance of actually ending the game. So a good chance the game might have continued. But nice to get the dead cert of a surrender victory.



Remember also if you had the Initiative card you may make your opponent roll again negating the effect of the time card.
 
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mark selleck
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yea but the germans had the initiative card and they were the ones drawing the time card.
So if the soviets had the initiative card and the germans drew the time card and made a sudden death roll, if it did not end the game the soviets could force the germans to draw again to try and end the game?
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Yes, indeed.

In fact, the sequence could even go like this (assuming the VPs are at 1 VP for the Russian and NO secret objectives chits will factor into the scoring.):

German rolls sudden death - 9, game won't end, Russian tosses the initiative.
German reroll sudden death - 5, game will end, German tosses the initiative.
German rerolls sudden death - 7, game won't end, Russian tosses the initiative.
German rerolls sudden death - 6, game will end, German tosses the initiative.
German rerolls sudden death - ??, and so on until the player holding the initiative is satisfied with the result.

So the "toss the initiative" sequence could start even if the German player held the card when the first sudden death roll was made and the German rolled 6 or lower to end the game and the Russians appeared to have the VP lead.

Don't forget - that as you played solo, you knew the hidden (secret) objectives of both sides. When playing face-to-face, you don't know what VPs your opponent might gain from the secret objective chit which now adds a bit of consideration about if you really want the game to end or not..

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Confusion Under Fire
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jesters_race wrote:
yea but the germans had the initiative card and they were the ones drawing the time card.
So if the soviets had the initiative card and the germans drew the time card and made a sudden death roll, if it did not end the game the soviets could force the germans to draw again to try and end the game?


Yes that's right or the Soviets could make the Germans reroll the fire attack roll or fire defence roll that had the time event attached to it so any passing of the initiative card would not bring about the same time event again.
 
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mark selleck
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RPardoe wrote:
Yes, indeed.

So the "toss the initiative" sequence could start even if the German player held the card when the first sudden death roll was made and the German rolled 6 or lower to end the game and the Russians appeared to have the VP lead.



I thought you could only use the initiative card for force your oppenant to re roll, not to re roll your own
 
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Richard Pardoe
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I suspected you were thinking that which is why I answered as I did.

Reread 9.1: At any time during the game, the player currently in control of the Initiative card may choose to cancel all effects of the last die roll to have been made

Notice, it does not say opponent's last die roll, just last die roll. So you can toss the initiative card on any die roll including your own.
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mark selleck
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ah yea i read it again, hmm must have skimmed over it and just saw the word opponent in the text and didnt really read the context to closely. I seem to do this when reading rule after rule. Oh well at least im getting all my bugs out during solo plays
 
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mark selleck
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so the german player could have passed the iniative card to the soviet side if the germans drew the time card, so in turn ingnoring the time effect and draw a new card
 
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jesters_race wrote:
so the german player could have passed the iniative card to the soviet side if the germans drew the time card, so in turn ingnoring the time effect and draw a new card

Yes. "...cancel all effects..."
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mark selleck
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wow i love it, good to see the game designer visits the boards even after 3 years of the game being out (now thats what i call support)

(btw just ordered CC:M and normandy yesterday)
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