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Subject: Voice of Ra, and other "After..." cards.... rss

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David Gardner
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The Voice of Ra says, "Discard after rolling to turn one of the dice to a different result of your choice."

We're assuming that you MUST state ahead of time that you're going to play this spell, per the rulebook which states for spells and items that they must be played before rolling the dice. So you must state you're using the Voice of Ra, and then you roll, and then you MUST discard the spell and must turn one of the dice to a different result?

Similarly, Flute of the Outer Gods says, "Discard after rolling to defeat one monster." We take this to mean that you MUST state before rolling that you're using the Flute, then you roll, then you MUST discard the Flute and eliminate a monster (even before applying dice to task, per another conversational thread here). So EVEN if you had a good roll, enough to take out a monster, you discard Flute and eliminate the foe, "wasting" that redundant good card.

The "After..." cards are going to confuse some new players, I think, because players are likely to think that they're not bound to play the cards and will tend to roll their dice, see whether things worked out, and if not, use their "After..." card as a Plan B (illegally in this instance).

Thanks in advance for any confirmations and discussion. --David
 
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T W
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The rules say (emphasis mine):
"Most Spells allow the player to place the spell card next to the play area immediately before the roll of the dice." and then go on to describe the 'storing a die on a Spell card' mechanic. And that is all the Spell rules describe, leaving those spells that are not 'most' unmentioned.

So, I interpret the 'Discard after rolling...' cards to mean exactly and only what is on the card - that the spell card can be discarded by the player after dice are rolled for the indicated effect, without having any prior requirement to place the card, or state that it is going to be used, before the roll.
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Trevor Long
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malgr3 wrote:

The rules say (emphasis mine):
"Most Spells allow the player to place the spell card next to the play area immediately before the roll of the dice." and then go on to describe the 'storing a die on a Spell card' mechanic. And that is all the Spell rules describe, leaving those spells that are not 'most' unmentioned.

So, I interpret the 'Discard after rolling...' cards to mean exactly and only what is on the card - that the spell card can be discarded by the player after dice are rolled for the indicated effect, without having any prior requirement to place the card, or state that it is going to be used, before the roll.


This may be the correct interpretation, but I like the OP's. It has the Arkham Horror-esque gambling to it. Instead of gambling the sanity v. successful casting you get losing a spell v. actually needing it.
 
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Winter324 wrote:
malgr3 wrote:

The rules say (emphasis mine):
"Most Spells allow the player to place the spell card next to the play area immediately before the roll of the dice." and then go on to describe the 'storing a die on a Spell card' mechanic. And that is all the Spell rules describe, leaving those spells that are not 'most' unmentioned.

So, I interpret the 'Discard after rolling...' cards to mean exactly and only what is on the card - that the spell card can be discarded by the player after dice are rolled for the indicated effect, without having any prior requirement to place the card, or state that it is going to be used, before the roll.


This may be the correct interpretation, but I like the OP's. It has the Arkham Horror-esque gambling to it. Instead of gambling the sanity v. successful casting you get losing a spell v. actually needing it.


Yes, I could definitely see that as the intent - the player must 'cast' the spell before a roll of the dice (playing the card), then 'resolve' the spell after the roll.
 
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Trevor Long
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malgr3 wrote:
Winter324 wrote:
malgr3 wrote:

The rules say (emphasis mine):
"Most Spells allow the player to place the spell card next to the play area immediately before the roll of the dice." and then go on to describe the 'storing a die on a Spell card' mechanic. And that is all the Spell rules describe, leaving those spells that are not 'most' unmentioned.

So, I interpret the 'Discard after rolling...' cards to mean exactly and only what is on the card - that the spell card can be discarded by the player after dice are rolled for the indicated effect, without having any prior requirement to place the card, or state that it is going to be used, before the roll.


This may be the correct interpretation, but I like the OP's. It has the Arkham Horror-esque gambling to it. Instead of gambling the sanity v. successful casting you get losing a spell v. actually needing it.


Yes, I could definitely see that as the intent - the player must 'cast' the spell before a roll of the dice (playing the card), then 'resolve' the spell after the roll.


Pleased to be getting the game, not pleased that I have to wait until the seventh. I think I will play it that way (unless I kick my butt kicked too hard).
 
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Jake Waltier
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I strongly agree that "after rolling" cards are played after rolling dice. The note in the book about most spells working in the dice-storing way is needed because those spells just have a square on them with no further explanation.
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T W
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TwentySides wrote:
I strongly agree that "after rolling" cards are played after rolling dice. The note in the book about most spells working in the dice-storing way is needed because those spells just have a square on them with no further explanation.


Yes, and No - the clincher is pg9, Using Items and Spells:
"A player may spend 1 or more Common Items, Unique Items, or Spells before any roll while his Investigator is on an Adventure card."
Which I completely missed, so it's not up to interpretation any more, yeah for resolution! The OP was totally right, spend the spell before a roll, then resolve after the roll.

EDIT - sorry, mistyped, I'm actually not in agreement with the quote. Spells are played (spent) before rolling. I only see one 'Discard after rolling' spell - Voice of Ra, so the others that say 'Discard...' can be used immediately (before the roll).
 
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Stephen Wilson
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While the "play before rolling, resolve after rolling" view is certainly consistent with the rules as written, I have a very hard time believing that this was the intent. I read the "after" statement on the card as a specific override of the usual process. I may be assuming here that, as in almost all games of this type, card wording that conflicts with general rules takes precedence, but it seems overly harsh the other way around.

I assume that, under the "play before" interpretation, a spell that turned out not to be needed (no die was altered) would still be discarded?

To me, the proper use of cards like this would be akin to Clue tokens and certain items in Arkham Horror, where the player can see the results of the roll before spending assets to change it.
 
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Todd France
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Sure, I have to play the spell before rolling, but my question would be "do I have to discard it after the roll, or is that an option I can exercise after any roll?" Can I keep the spell in play, like a captured die spell, until I need to use it?
 
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caersidi wrote:
While the "play before rolling, resolve after rolling" view is certainly consistent with the rules as written, I have a very hard time believing that this was the intent. I read the "after" statement on the card as a specific override of the usual process. I may be assuming here that, as in almost all games of this type, card wording that conflicts with general rules takes precedence, but it seems overly harsh the other way around.

I assume that, under the "play before" interpretation, a spell that turned out not to be needed (no die was altered) would still be discarded?

To me, the proper use of cards like this would be akin to Clue tokens and certain items in Arkham Horror, where the player can see the results of the roll before spending assets to change it.


I agree, I think everything would be a lot cleaner if you just do what is on the card, and that may be the intent -
ex: Whiskey 'Discard this card instead of losing one Sanity', how does it make sense to 'spend' that 'before a roll'?
So the 'die locking' spells are all spent before a roll, as are the items that add a red or yellow die to the pool. All the other cards can be played and resolved according to the text on the card. I'm going with that.

(And I do think all cards should apply to just the adventure the investigator is on, with the exception of the 2 'any investigator' spells)

 
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David Gardner
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For the record, TW, I really agree with the spirit of your ruling and do indeed think this is the designer's intent. Of course, I'm just guessing, or intuiting -- I should would appreciate it if Fantasy Flight gave another scan to their rulebooks. While I appreciate that it can be very hard to write a "perfect" rulebook, the ambiguity of this particular ruling pops up pretty obviously in one's first or second game, and the rulebook as written shows no sensitivity to this ambiguity.

So a proper FAQ ruling would give me 100% confidence, but for now I'll take 90% confidence around a more intuitive ruling. The only thing about this is that playing with your approach makes the game a bit easier, which goes against my tendency to play things strict and hardcore -- the way I think the Lovecraft milieu is oriented. That said, I do think the designer was trying to make this part both intuitive and easier. --David
 
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Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting the first official FAQ! I've been through many of the rules issues multiple times, often coming up with a 'strict' interpretation that doesn't really match with my perceived intent, so on a few things I've gone with what I think is the cleaner solution, sometimes at the expense of a little difficulty.

I do think the game was meant to be fairly straightforward and easy to play, and when I'm torn on some interpretation, I think of some of my friends who are potential players and how I would explain the game to them.
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Nicholas Schreck
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Wil Wheaton has Mr. Brady use the voice of Ra after he had rolled to win against he who shall not be named on tabletop.
 
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David Gardner
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Out of curiosity, did a subsequent FAQ ever come out? Also, did the expansion clarify any of this? I haven't kept up with the game very recently, but with a desire to return, it would be nice to have this figured out.
 
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Mark L
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Yes, David, there is a FAQ, and also a revised rulebook. Both can be downloaded from FFG's site.

The revised rulebook is later than the FAQ, so it takes precedence if you want to use the "official" rules, but I think there are some things in the FAQ that aren't covered in the revised rules.

The spell rules changed, btw. They are now generally played after rolling, not before.

There are still some unclear points in the rules, but most have been officially answered and the answers can be found in the rules forum here.
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David Gardner
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Thank you, Mark. I will check that out. So it sounds as if the earlier query in this thread is essentially the more lenient version -- that you can wait and see and then decide to use your Spell. Thanks. --David
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