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Subject: Callous Guards vs Master Spy rss

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Robert Roberts
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I've gone through google and the posts here and I didn't find anything regarding these two.

First off we decided to just take these two cards out of the game. But still I wanted to know the official ruling on this.

If these two are in play, does that mean now you can't play any action cards at all, since playing one that normally does not alter the line now does alter the line because of the master spy?

Thanks!
 
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Keith W
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In this case, I would say that the altering of the line by the Master Spy isn't truly due to the card being played. The Master Spy is a reaction to the card being played, playing the card doesn't directly move him.
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Robert Roberts
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I agree with this too but my sister has the other view and I think her PHD gets to her head sometimes. Instead of being unsure about it, she is dead set that this is not the case and that no cards can be played if those two are both in play.

I see some posts eventually quoting an "official" ruling on things. How would you go about getting one on this? Any other opinions appreciated also! Thanks!
 
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Patrick Bauer
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Robroy2286 wrote:
I agree with this too but my sister has the other view and I think her PHD gets to her head sometimes. Instead of being unsure about it, she is dead set that this is not the case and that no cards can be played if those two are both in play.

I see some posts eventually quoting an "official" ruling on things. How would you go about getting one on this? Any other opinions appreciated also! Thanks!


Your sister is quite simply wrong. When you play the action card "Callous Guard" the Master Spy moves to the end of the line. The CG card prevents you from adding nobles, so the Master spy will not have any nobles placed behind him because the CG card prevents it and thus the play of non-line-altering cards would not alter the line. I count 23 action cards that do not alter the line: Rat Break,Fountain of Blood, and Indifferent Public to name a few. Key amongst them is Twist of Fate which would allow the player to discard the CG card.
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Robert Roberts
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SewerStarFish wrote:

Your sister is quite simply wrong. When you play the action card "Callous Guard" the Master Spy moves to the end of the line. The CG card prevents you from adding nobles, so the Master spy will not have any nobles placed behind him because the CG card prevents it and thus the play of non-line-altering cards would not alter the line. I count 23 action cards that do not alter the line: Rat Break,Fountain of Blood, and Indifferent Public to name a few. Key amongst them is Twist of Fate which would allow the player to discard the CG card.


Yes I see your point with that, but what about if the day ends and the spy is dealt the next day and is not at the end already, when CG is already in play?
 
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Patrick Bauer
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Robroy2286 wrote:
SewerStarFish wrote:

Your sister is quite simply wrong. When you play the action card "Callous Guard" the Master Spy moves to the end of the line. The CG card prevents you from adding nobles, so the Master spy will not have any nobles placed behind him because the CG card prevents it and thus the play of non-line-altering cards would not alter the line. I count 23 action cards that do not alter the line: Rat Break,Fountain of Blood, and Indifferent Public to name a few. Key amongst them is Twist of Fate which would allow the player to discard the CG card.


Yes I see your point with that, but what about if the day ends and the spy is dealt the next day and is not at the end already, when CG is already in play?


The Callous Guard card prohibits action cards that alter the line -- in the above situation the play of a non-line altering card would be allowed, then the spy sneaks to the back of the line -- essentially the guards are the ones who enforce the changes in the line but the spy moves to the back by his skill and does not need their intervention.

Your sister's argument that an action card that doesn't alter the line becomes one that does because the Master Spy is in line is wrong because it is not the action card that alters the line but the Spy's skill which the CG card does not prohibit. That is: the action card is played and completed, not altering the line,then having fulfilled the CG's prohibition the Spy then move's to the rear by his unprohibited power.

As a final point, you would think the rules would mention the complete prohibition in this situation if that's what it meant.
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Chad Miller
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I think removing Callous Guards is a good plan anyway.

EDIT: Here are some people who elaborate which I completely agree with. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/235968/callous-guards-an...

Callous Guards is a card that essentially reads "No one is actually playing the game until you feel like letting them."
 
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Xander van Ballegooijen
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Can you name those 23 cards please?

I count only 22:

1. Rat break
2. Fountain of Blood
3. Indifferent Public/Croud
4. Twist of Fate
5. and 6. Political influence
7. and 8. Double take/feature
9. Church Support
10. Civic Support
11. Military support
12. Tough Crowd
13. Forced Break
14. Foreign Support
15. Information Exchange
16. Lack of Support
17. Missing Heads
18. Rain delay
19. Clerical Error
20. Rush Job
21. Infighting
22. Scarlet Pimpernel (Can be argued)

Clothing Swap and After You remove nobles and in my Dutch rulings is mentioned that removing or adding nobles is not allowed with CG.
 
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Chris Talmadge
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The only way to acquire the Master Spy is if he move to the front of the line naturally, without being moved there as the result of an action card.
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Patrick Bauer
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Xildur wrote:
Can you name those 23 cards please?

I count only 22:

1. Rat break
2. Fountain of Blood
3. Indifferent Public/Croud
4. Twist of Fate
5. and 6. Political influence
7. and 8. Double take/feature
9. Church Support
10. Civic Support
11. Military support
12. Tough Crowd
13. Forced Break
14. Foreign Support
15. Information Exchange
16. Lack of Support
17. Missing Heads
18. Rain delay
19. Clerical Error
20. Rush Job
21. Infighting
22. Scarlet Pimpernel (Can be argued)

Clothing Swap and After You remove nobles and in my Dutch rulings is mentioned that removing or adding nobles is not allowed with CG.


I mis-counted(or mis-typed) and have the 22 cards you have mentioned, understanding that the Two Double Feature and the Scarlet Pimpernel can be argued, plus 5 other possible plays for 27. There are 4 cards that move a specific colored noble(Majesty, Military Might, Civic Pride,Lack of Faith); if no such noble is in the line then playing that card does not alter the line. "Missed" can be played if the chosen player has not collected a noble.
 
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Robroy2286 wrote:
I agree with this too but my sister has the other view and I think her PHD gets to her head sometimes. Instead of being unsure about it, she is dead set that this is not the case and that no cards can be played if those two are both in play.


I would argue that her PHD is the REASON she is wrong.

You can tell her I said that.

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Teeka
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SewerStarFish wrote:
I mis-counted(or mis-typed) and have the 22 cards you have mentioned, understanding that the Two Double Feature and the Scarlet Pimpernel can be argued, plus 5 other possible plays for 27.


I would definititely not count Double Feature as a card that alters the line.

Double feature just makes you collect twice. Never does that card alter the order, or explicitly "remove" a noble.
It does, however in effect alter the order that players would collect nobles with no further cards played. This makes it a nice weapon against Callous Guards besides Political Influence and of course Twist of Fate.

Scarlet Pimpernel is a debatable one, sure. I would've been happier if it would've just said "end the day after you collect your noble". Then, as a result of a day ending the current line gets replaced by a new one. But it does say "discard any remaining nobles"... We normally play it so SP can be played with CG in effect, but to be honest this thread makes me have second thoughts...
 
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