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Lock 'n Load: Heroes of the Gap» Forums » Rules

Subject: Op Fire and ATGM launches rss

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Steve Pultorak
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I asked this question below on a previous post and received no answer.
Furthermore, 13.94.3 says that any Op fire at an ATGM-firing unit that results in a Damage Check (regardless of the result of the Damage Check) causes the ATGM to miss. Ordnance Fire does not cause Damage Checks, they cause Morale Checks. Should the Rule have read that a Damage Check or Morale Check (resulting from any ordnance hit) causes the ATGM to miss?


[i]Rule 13.94.3 says "any enemy units can conduct Opportunity Fire against the ATGM unit, with their inherent Firepower or any Support Weapon that uses the DFT" ...

I assume this means that a tank (or helicopter) CANNOT Op fire at a vehicle-launched ATGM with its main gun ordnance using the OFT and its penetration values.

It also implies that a anti-tank weapon such as a LAW or RPG cannot Op fire using the OFT and its penetration values.

Is this correct?

Why does this rule limit use to "using the DFT" ??


 
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Vance Strickland
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SJBenoist wrote:
Ordnance Fire can cause Damage Checks.

The LAW or an RPG can NOT fire on a ATGM as outlined, nor can the main armament of a tank.

The rule does not address Penetration, because only Ordnance uses Penetration, while only Direct Fire weapons can be used in Op. Fire.

The only weapons that can be used (DFT) cause Damage Checks.



Wait... what?!? Why can't the main armament of a tank Op fire? Roll to hit, if hit use the HE equivalent vs the defending units roll to see if a DFT damage check is required.

Same goes for all ordinance doesn't it?

The only ordinance that I know of that can't Op fire is a ATGM that's assault moving.

Or maybe I'm miss understanding you SJ...
 
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Steve Pultorak
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SJ
Sorry, I know Ordnance can cause Damage Checks against infantry but look at my original question which says "firing at a vehicle-launched ATGM.

By the way, where does it say "the LAW or an RPG can NOT fire on a ATGM as outlined, nor can the main armament of a tank."

And what do you mean by "while only Direct Fire weapons can be used in Op. Fire" ? No one is talking about indirect fire. Direct Fire is any small arms or ordnance weapon isn't it?

Maybe the sentence in 13.94.3 should have read ... "In step two any enemy units can conduct opportunity fire against the ATGM-firing unit." (period)
 
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Vance Strickland
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I see what your saying SJ, but I think we need a ruling from Mark on his intensions...

I read "with their inherent Firepower or any Support Weapon that uses the DFT" as only support wepons that use the DFT. So yes that precludes LAW's and RPG's but not tank main guns...
 
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Mark
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I think the important term is "Damage Check." Vehicles don't take damage checks, they check for penetration. Vehicle mounted ATGM's would not be subject to the rule, only infantry fired ATGM's.

Makes sense, the intent of the rule is that infantry based ATGM's are vulnerable if the operator has to duck a spray of bullets or incoming explosives. A vehicle operator is not going to be disturbed by small arms fire. It would take a direct penetrating hit (without getting into which weapons could cause enough vibration or shock if they don't penetrate) to affect the vehicle operator's aim. To achieve a direct hit on a vehicle requires aiming time, unlike laying down suppressing fire on ATGM firing infantry. And, shooting at a vehicle to suppress it's ATGM is probably very low probability, not in the scope of the rule.
 
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Steve Pultorak
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SJ, I appreciate your clarifications and hope you are the authority here but it this is getting quite complicated.

If I were an infantryman, tanker, weapons team or pilot who saw the launch of an ATGM (from a vehicle or infantry weapons team), I would fire at it!

If that were the case, there would be no additional rules to remember but now we apparently have a slew of new unmentioned rules and exceptions?

 
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Steve Pultorak
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Okay, let me see if I have it right ...

tanks, helicopters, weapon teams and infantry firing shoulder-fired ordnance cannot op-fire their ordnance-slow-firing weapons (HE or AP ammo) against ATGM-firing units (hand-held or vehicle-mounted) but they can op-fire these weapons against other units.

However, they can fire these ordnance weapons at spotted ATGM units (or any others) during their impulse (not op-firing).

Also tanks, helicopters, weapon teams and infantry firing "direct fire" weapons, such as machine guns and small arms, can op-fire or regular impulse-fire their machine guns at these ATGM units (or any others) anytime.

Is that correct?

 
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Mark
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I think it is. You are glossing over that the ATGM Op Fire is supposed to be quick reacting (cause the time of flight of the missiles is measured in tens of seconds at the longest). But, even taking that into account, the execution of the rule does seem arbitrary. It feels like a "wouldn't it be cool" rule that necessarily carry's more complications than it's worth, and was truncated for brevity. Seems like it could use another sentence of two for clarity. Since it won't come up overmuch, it's probably not a game breaker.
 
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Steve Pultorak
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SJ:
Well said...

and that's what I was just thinking regarding the word "opportunity" fire in 13.94.3.

Maybe it should just have used "interruption" fire or ATGM "response" fire?

 
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Kev.
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Steve Pultorak wrote:
SJ:
Well said...

and that's what I was just thinking regarding the word "opportunity" fire in 13.94.3.

Maybe it should just have used "interruption" fire or ATGM "response" fire?


i ignore the ATGM opp fire rule.
 
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Steve Pultorak
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With this 'small arms op-fire only' restriction the opportunity may never happen.

Small arms range is so short and ATGMs are likely to be so far back due to their missiles not arming themselves until after a few hexes.
 
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Mark Walker
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Quote:
With this 'small arms op-fire only' restriction the opportunity may never happen.

Small arms range is so short and ATGMs are likely to be so far back due to their missiles not arming themselves until after a few hexes.


As the little black guy in Angels in The Outfield says. "Hey, it could happen." If you have infantry in front of your tanks, they might be within range of a firing ATGM.
 
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Steve Pultorak
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These eligible weapons appear to classified as "small arms, based on 17.2
 
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Mark Walker
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Yep.
 
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