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Subject: Balancing statues rss

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Franklin Lautert
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I asked Sparhawk to get me game info from the database, in order to do some statistics. My focus was mainly about statues - since only one player can have each one, it is crucial to balance them for the game to be fair.

I only manage to extract 35 advanced games with two players, and these are the results:

Statue/Games Started/Games Won/Percentage
Aphrodite 3 3 100,0%
Athena 14 10 71,4%
Hestia 6 4 66,7%
Hephaestus 11 7 63,6%
Hermes 13 6 46,2%
Artemis 8 3 37,5%
Dyonisus 7 2 28,6%
Ares 4 0 0,0%
Hera 4 0 0,0%


The sample is not statistically relevant, but it confirms some feelings I was having.

Athena and Hermes are clearly the most popular - they easy to use and powerful. Hermes is allright, but I think Athena +2 on construction gives too much of an initial advantage.
Dyonisus is pretty hard to use against an experienced player. Maybe he could use his power not only when occupying Zeus Temple, but also when no enemy was there. Or would it be too much?
Hera is definitely weak, too hard to be worth it. Maybe new statues could be built with no gold, or with a discount of two?
Ares is not great either. It used to award Militarism on the spot, but then it was too strong. Maybe he could allow Militarism and Logistics to be aquired the usual way, but spending no Knowledge?

What are your thoughts?
 
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Marco Bouzada
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flautert wrote:
Athena and Hermes are clearly the most popular - they easy to use and powerful. Hermes is allright, but I think Athena +2 on construction gives too much of an initial advantage.


I think Athena is ok and Hermes too powerful. How about receiving any good each turn but without stealing?

flautert wrote:
Dyonisus is pretty hard to use against an experienced player. Maybe he could use his power not only when occupying Zeus Temple, but also when no enemy was there. Or would it be too much?


Good idea!

flautert wrote:
Hera is definitely weak, too hard to be worth it. Maybe new statues could be built with no gold, or with a discount of two?


Discount of any two resources!

flautert wrote:
Ares is not great either. It used to award Militarism on the spot, but then it was too strong. Maybe he could allow Militarism and Logistics to be aquired the usual way, but spending no Knowledge?


Good idea!
 
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Mike Tomashewski
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i haven't played enough advanced games to form an opinion, sorry!
 
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flautert wrote:
I only manage to extract 35 advanced games with two players, ...

Some statues might be more/less powerful with a different number of players. This should be accounted for also. I would also wait for more data before making too many conclusions.

flautert wrote:
Dyonisus is pretty hard to use against an experienced player. Maybe he could use his power not only when occupying Zeus Temple, but also when no enemy was there. Or would it be too much?

I think that sounds like too much. If the temple is far away no-one will go there for quite some time. Not having to pay tribute can be really nice.

Marco wrote:
I think Athena is ok and Hermes too powerful. How about receiving any good each turn but without stealing?

I never thought of him as that powerful, and the numbers, although severely insignificant statistically, doesn't indicate that either. Maybe just +1 on build for Athena?

flautert wrote:
Hera is definitely weak, too hard to be worth it. Maybe new statues could be built with no gold, or with a discount of two?

Yes, I never want to build her. No gold sounds like overkill, discount of two gold or alternatively cost of 1 stone/2 gold could be good?

flautert wrote:
Ares is not great either. It used to award Militarism on the spot, but then it was too strong. Maybe he could allow Militarism and Logistics to be aquired the usual way, but spending no Knowledge?

I like your idea, but just as an alternative: How about the regular attack +1 and an additional +3/4/5 on cities, or a similar city battle effect? City attacking haven't come into play too much in my games. I don't know if this is thematically "correct", though...
 
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Leif Norcott
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I think Athena is way to powerful, I would at least get rid of her initial 2 knowledge. Since that initial advantage is easily game breaking. Ares could give a ME every turn instead of +1 per battle, since not having a battle every turn.
 
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I'm quite surprised about the statistics. I have no experiences with Athena, but Hermes is far too powerful in my opinion.

In fact the Statue of Hermes is one of the reasons, why I prefer the basic game, and the only reason, why I no longer play the advanced game at all. I just don't want to have lost a game before I started it (when another player before me chose Hermes)!

In combination with the events "Tribute" and "Lost Fleet" Hermes gives a huge advantage. In my opinion, if the owner of this statue is aware of his advantages by stealing the other players gold and if he makes no big mistakes during the game, it is nearly impossible to win against him.

As Marco suggested, the function of Hermes could be restricted to receiving any good, but not stealing it from other players. Another possibility would be to restrict him to stone, wood and military equipment. I think, if Hermes could not steal gold, he would no longer be much more powerful than other statues.
 
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