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Subject: Is it Qwoken? rss

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Mike Clarke
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I know it's a light dice game and that's what attracts me to it. I don't mind dice in a game if there's a way of allowing you to mitigate the luck and it seems this game is designed to do that.

However, when I read that all you need to do to win is save up for the Dragon...or whoever has the Dragon wins well that is cause to pause.

This game is on my "buy" list along with Ra - the Dice Game because I'm looking for another good little rolling game to supplement Roll Through the Ages which for me has now become pretty boring (even with the Late Bronze Age added). I never was a big Yahtzee fan.

So how about it? Is it broken? Is the Dragon all you need or can you still play Quarriors and use all 'dem udder monsta's and spells and such and still have fun? And please don't talk to me about house rules. I don't want to re-create Frankenstein. I just want to play the game as it was designed.
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DK Kemler
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It's not broken in the classic sense, but it offers no deep or particularly meaningful choices to be made.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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The Dragon is essentially THE end game monster. If you have enough to buy one, more often than not you will. This is not to say however that every game you play will be people massing dragons and that the first one who gets the most wins. You can buy a dragon and never get it out or have it killed by a spell or other creatures before it scores. They are powerful but not untouchable. At their cost, more often than not the overall game will be decided around the more commonly affordable creatures and spells with dragons being the occasional push, usually late game.

Living in New West you could always drop by Board Game Warriors on Saturday and ask to play a game or two to check it out. You may not learn everything there is about it but it would give you a good over view of whether or not the game is for you.
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Tom DeFrank
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I don't necessarily feel this way. But if you do, you can just not include the Dragon spells. You only use 7 of the 10 creature classes in a game anyway. Remove the Dragons, and you still are randomizing 9 creature classes with three types a piece.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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degamer wrote:
It's not broken in the classic sense, but it offers no deep or particularly meaningful choices to be made.


That is not really true though. It is not the deepest game for sure but there are a fair amount of choices and strategies you can employ in the course of a game. The primary element of strategy obviously being purchases but also summoning choices and spell usage. Like any deck builder the more you play the more you learn the cards and develop new ways to use them.
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Maybe everyone in my group is an idiot (myself included) but it takes us almost an entire game to get the Quiddity to score a Dragon and by the time we do, there are only a few rounds remaining before the game is over and either (1) having the dragon didn't help at all or (2) having the dragon helped for one round. It's never been a game changer for even one of our games.

But, as I said before, maybe we're all idiots.
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Even with the Dragon, I wouldn't call it outright broken. The Dragon can be a big boon to the player who gets it early, but it's not absolutely insurmountable. That said, the game sinks lower in my estimation the more that I play it. In a four player game, I find that there's usually a player who just can't seem to get off the starter blocks, and a player who can't score to save their life is just as bad a sign as a runaway leader.

Even without taking balance issues into account, I just don't think that there are very many meaningful decisions to be made. Even mindless dice rolling could be interesting if you're really rooting for a combo to take down your opponent's creatures, but when you pull the dice from your bag you can usually tell whether you've got a prayer or not, so there's rarely any tension. It's this double layer of randomness that makes the game an improved variant of LCR, where the difference in strategy is of degree and not of kind; it still boils down to "roll well".
 
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Mike Clarke
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Hey Kiren. Thanks for the invite!

degamer' wrote:
It's not broken in the classic sense, but it offers no deep or particularly meaningful choices to be made.

Doesn't customizing your dice bag result in meaningful choices? I mean it's a dice game right? By definition it can't be THAT deep. All you're looking for in a dice game is a quick filler that's fun but obviously it has to have SOME meaningful choices to be any kind of a game.

EDIT: wow...everyone's answering so quickly today. I see you also covered this Kiren.
 
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Trent Hamm
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Having the dragon present gives you a strategic choice: do you go for a "weenie rush" or do you try to build up quiddity for the dragon? The ins and outs of that decision depend on the other cards on the table.
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Mike Clarke
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Holmes! wrote:
Even without taking balance issues into account, I just don't think that there are very many meaningful decisions to be made. Even mindless dice rolling could be interesting if you're really rooting for a combo to take down your opponent's creatures, but when you pull the dice from your bag you can usually tell whether you've got a prayer or not, so there's rarely any tension.

Ouch!

I hear you. But in a deck building game (I'm playing A Few Acres of Snow which is a deck building war game) the main part of the game is in having the cards you need when you need them.

Isn't that Quarriors? Obviously being dice, you can't rely on them, but in dice you also play the odds...so you put more of what you need in there to balance out the randomness. Can't you do that here?
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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mikecl wrote:
Holmes! wrote:
Even without taking balance issues into account, I just don't think that there are very many meaningful decisions to be made. Even mindless dice rolling could be interesting if you're really rooting for a combo to take down your opponent's creatures, but when you pull the dice from your bag you can usually tell whether you've got a prayer or not, so there's rarely any tension.

Ouch!

I hear you. But in a deck building game (I'm playing A Few Acres of Snow which is a deck building war game) the main part of the game is in having the cards you need when you need them.

Isn't that Quarriors? Obviously being dice, you can't rely on them, but in dice you also play the odds...so you put more of what you need in there to balance out the randomness. Can't you do that here?


Honestly as someone who has sunk a lot of play time into Dominion I would say that as a deck building style of game Quarriors is not all that much different in terms of strategic choices or luck or the draw/roll. I consider Quarriors to be by far the most fun though out of all the deck building types of games I have played.
 
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DK Kemler
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Not really. The game ends to soon for you to really form any sort of "long term" strategy. This is not a combo focused game, or an engine building game, or even an optimization game (pretty much everything every other deck building games are). The game is about making the best use of what you roll. Unfortunetly "what is best" is usually plain as day, and requires little to no decision making.
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1st if you are thinking while playing this you are missing the point.

Sure getting the dragon usually means you win, but you need to get there. Also keep in mind that this game will be expanded... and expanded.. and expanded.

You can also not put that card in the deck to determine monsters if you feel it is over powered.

so Broken.. nope.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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degamer wrote:
Not really. The game ends to soon for you to really form any sort of "long term" strategy. This is not a combo focused game, or an engine building game, or even an optimization game (pretty much everything every other deck building games are). The game is about making the best use of what you roll. Unfortunetly "what is best" is usually plain as day, and requires little to no decision making.


If by engines and combos you mean using + actions to play more actions then I tend to find the draw and roll dice such as portals are pretty much the Quarriors equivalent. As for optimizing your deck or in Quarriors your dice bag that is exactly what you are doing and the entire reason for culling. Other deck builders tend to be about card knowledge after that the choices are as obvious as you seem to be suggesting Quarriors are.
 
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Kirenx wrote:
degamer wrote:
It's not broken in the classic sense, but it offers no deep or particularly meaningful choices to be made.


That is not really true though. It is not the deepest game for sure but there are a fair amount of choices and strategies you can employ in the course of a game. The primary element of strategy obviously being purchases but also summoning choices and spell usage. Like any deck builder the more you play the more you learn the cards and develop new ways to use them.


I fully concur. You can also add decision points on when and what to re-roll.

-Ski
 
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Mike Clarke
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JonJacob wrote:
There isn't much to mitigate luck but Dragons don't do anything unless you roll them.

It's the dice that kill it. Great game, pure luck. If you can deal with that. I'm in East Van if you wanna try it out.

Hey Jacob...missed your post. Thanks for the offer. I have no problem with dice, handled well. Just read your profile which turned me on to Fortress. Is that a local website?
 
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Mike Clarke
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from Mike Elliott's Designer's Diary wrote:
I realize that some players despise randomness, but those players probably don't play a lot of dice games anyway, so we figured we would go for an appropriate range of results for the players that actually like dice games and might buy this type of game. It is a common mistake to try to cater to every audience. If you are a hardcore player of Through the Ages (great game), Agricola (great game) or even some of the deck-building games (greatness varies widely), this might not be your type of game.

Further to this debate, the designer himself notes this game isn't designed to cater to people who DON'T like dice. With that in mind, my OP was aimed at those that do, but wanting to know whether despite that it might still be broken. I'm starting to get the impression that it's a pretty decent dice game, but it's obviously not a deep strategic game. I never thought it would be. I was primarily concerned after reading the dragon posts that it wasn't much of a game in any sense.

I'm getting the impression that's not the case. This is not the type of game you'd want to spend too long playing but it seems to hit the sweet spot for a filler.
 
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mikecl wrote:
Holmes! wrote:
Even without taking balance issues into account, I just don't think that there are very many meaningful decisions to be made. Even mindless dice rolling could be interesting if you're really rooting for a combo to take down your opponent's creatures, but when you pull the dice from your bag you can usually tell whether you've got a prayer or not, so there's rarely any tension.

Ouch!

I hear you. But in a deck building game (I'm playing A Few Acres of Snow which is a deck building war game) the main part of the game is in having the cards you need when you need them.

Isn't that Quarriors? Obviously being dice, you can't rely on them, but in dice you also play the odds...so you put more of what you need in there to balance out the randomness. Can't you do that here?

Well, it's not fair to compare Few Acres; that's a fantastic, intricate game with a lot of depth. Quarriors' staunchest supporters wouldn't make that claim about it; it's a different animal altogether.

That said, in a game like Dominion you've often got a lot more control over what goes in your deck, with multiple buys and a range of cheap and expensive cards, and what comes out of it, with lots of opportunities for card draws. So while it's likely that you'll get hosed occasionally, you have a greater degree of control than in Quarriors. Quarriors has some "+n" dice powers, but there aren't enough of them to lard your deck with and depend upon them. It offsets the problem of not rolling well with the reroll faces, and that's good, but it's not enough to really exert control.

The problem is exacerbated by poor flow issues. Dominion (and Few Acres) work really well because the first part of the game is spent building up a machine. At some point, things ignite and then the race is on to exploit what you've set up. In Quarriors, scoring starts immediately, and there's little you can do to stem it. There's little incentive to get "support" dice, 'cos if others are getting creatures they're going to be scoring while you try to get your bag optimized. Instead, it becomes about always getting the strongest creature you can, and hoping that you roll what you need.

Really, the statements of Quarriors proponents like malloc are more damning than anything I'm saying. I just don't want to play a game where I have to stop thinking to enjoy it, and I don't want to have to nerf the game or drop money on expansions that make the game work for me. I'm looking at the game as proffered, and there are better things to play, even in the beer and pretzels sphere.
 
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Jack Francisco
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I don't know if it's quoken, but it's on the verge of getting quold in my next auction. cool
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Mike Clarke
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Holmes! wrote:
mikecl wrote:
Holmes! wrote:
Even without taking balance issues into account, I just don't think that there are very many meaningful decisions to be made. Even mindless dice rolling could be interesting if you're really rooting for a combo to take down your opponent's creatures, but when you pull the dice from your bag you can usually tell whether you've got a prayer or not, so there's rarely any tension.

Ouch!

I hear you. But in a deck building game (I'm playing A Few Acres of Snow which is a deck building war game) the main part of the game is in having the cards you need when you need them.



Well, it's not fair to compare Few Acres; that's a fantastic, intricate game with a lot of depth. Quarriors' staunchest supporters wouldn't make that claim about it; it's a different animal altogether.


I wouldn't dream of comparing them in that sense. I was just comparing a deck building mechanic to a dice building mechanic and used AFAOS to say that's the current deck building game I'm playing. You're so right. They are NOTHING alike.


Holmes! wrote:
Quarriors has some "+n" dice powers, but there aren't enough of them to lard your deck with and depend upon them. It offsets the problem of not rolling well with the reroll faces, and that's good, but it's not enough to really exert control.

I refer again to this:
Mike Elliott's Designer Diary wrote:
I realize that some players despise randomness, but those players probably don't play a lot of dice games anyway, so we figured we would go for an appropriate range of results for the players that actually like dice games and might buy this type of game. It is a common mistake to try to cater to every audience. If you are a hardcore player of Through the Ages (great game), Agricola (great game) or even some of the deck-building games (greatness varies widely), this might not be your type of game.


Seems to me your problem is with dice in general. I like heavy games, but I also like dice.

EDIT: and so does my wife and I have to keep her happy too if I'm going to get her to play some of the other stuff with me occasionally.
 
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Holmes! wrote:
In Quarriors, scoring starts immediately, and there's little you can do to stem it. There's little incentive to get "support" dice, 'cos if others are getting creatures they're going to be scoring while you try to get your bag optimized. Instead, it becomes about always getting the strongest creature you can, and hoping that you roll what you need.

I missed this point, but it's a pretty good one...and is another cause for concern if true. Isn't there enough time to find a moment where others can handle that(destroying opponent's monsters) while you try and build some support. In most games there's an ebb and flow within which you can find some quieter building moments for yourself.
 
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mikecl wrote:
Seems to me your problem is with dice in general. I like heavy games, but I also like dice.

EDIT: and so does my wife and I have to keep her happy too if I'm going to get her to play some of the other stuff with me occasionally.

Well, that's just not true, and I have no idea where you'd extrapolate that idea from what I've said, other than a false equation advanced by the designer that if you don't like the game then you must have a grudge against randomness and you don't play dice games.

Gimme C&C:Ancients, Kingsburg, Alien Frontiers, Conquest of Nerath, Alea Iacta Est, Formula De, Roll Through the Ages, Can't Stop, Powerboats: from light to heavy, I'm predisposed to dig me some dice... I like the feel of 'em in my hand, I like the sounds that they make, and I like to stack 'em up between turns; I think that dice are great! But I don't think that Quarriors is.

I thought this game would be in my wheelhouse, and bought it as soon as I saw it on the shelf. The first couple of times I played it, I had a lot of fun. But by three or four plays, a game usually starts to sink in and reveal the deeper layers of itself. That just didn't happen with Quarriors, quite the opposite. To paraphrase Woody Allen: deep down it's very shallow.
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budsticky wrote:


Let's wake it with smelling salts, then beat it again!
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Holmes! wrote:

That said, in a game like Dominion you've often got a lot more control over what goes in your deck, with multiple buys and a range of cheap and expensive cards, and what comes out of it, with lots of opportunities for card draws. So while it's likely that you'll get hosed occasionally, you have a greater degree of control than in Quarriors. Quarriors has some "+n" dice powers, but there aren't enough of them to lard your deck with and depend upon them. It offsets the problem of not rolling well with the reroll faces, and that's good, but it's not enough to really exert control.


You do have a bit more control in Dominion in terms of what goes in your deck. You still need to draw enough cash to purchase different cards though. I think in that case the biggest difference is the price range. BAse Dominion tends to have cards costing around 2-6 on average while Quarriors! has a larger range of 2-9. I do think Quarriors! could benifit from some more additional buy card options. Dominion had I believe 4 for I think it was about 32 different cards, while Quarriors! has 2 for 53 cards. More rerolls would be good as well but the draw and roll effects are included with a standard power, portal, in all games and this does help offset weak rolls.

Quote:
The problem is exacerbated by poor flow issues. Dominion (and Few Acres) work really well because the first part of the game is spent building up a machine. At some point, things ignite and then the race is on to exploit what you've set up. In Quarriors, scoring starts immediately, and there's little you can do to stem it. There's little incentive to get "support" dice, 'cos if others are getting creatures they're going to be scoring while you try to get your bag optimized. Instead, it becomes about always getting the strongest creature you can, and hoping that you roll what you need.


Support dice, especially ones such as portals, many of the growth spells, and several other spells and creature effects actually go along way to creating a much more streamlined bag and usable rolls. Many spells and effect help you achieve a higher base purchasing power, more reliable summoning ability, larger hands and thus improved chances at playable rolls, and the ability to save effects for later use when they can do the most for the caster. Not sure how that equals little incentive to get them nor how they don't optimize your bag themselves but I think it is another case of learning the cards through games to see how much they actually can do. It tends to be far more than early plays sometime suggest.

 
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