Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
31 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Descent: The Road to Legend» Forums » Rules

Subject: Daze in RtL rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
chris ward
Scotland
Paisley
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi everyone,

How do people handle daze when it comes to silver and gold power dice?

in the RtL rulebook under Daze it says:

"Each time a figure attacks while it has one or more daze tokens
on it, it loses one die (either yellow, black, or green) from its
attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the
figure’s owner. If there are more daze tokens on the figure than
the number of yellow, green, and black dice used in its attacks, it
loses all such dice."

this seems clear enough, but it doesn't seem to match up to how other rules affecting power dice have been translated into the AC. usually a black die in JitD becomes a black die OR power upgrade.

Are most people taking this rule as written ie no effect on gold/silver die? Or that a daze token causes 1 level of downgrade (gold -> silver etc)? Or than an entire power die is lost through a daze token (if chosen) regardless of colour.

Sorry if this seems like a daft question, I concede that the RAW reads clearly, it just doesn't seem "right" and I wondered if the rulebook has been subsequently FAQed or errata-ed.

cheers - Chris
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.J.E. Hendriks
Netherlands
Arnhem
Gelderland
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Daze in the second stage would be one silver die less. Downgrades from Gold to Black would be fine by me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Williams
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
cw67q wrote:

Are most people taking this rule as written ie no effect on gold/silver die? Or that a daze token causes 1 level of downgrade (gold -> silver etc)? Or than an entire power die is lost through a daze token (if chosen) regardless of colour.


There hasn't been any great discussion of this question that I'm aware of. Like all rules that refer to "black dice" and were written prior to the release of RtL, the answer is unclear.

On the one hand, the rule technically says "lose one die." The mention of "black" is only an example of what a die is (in case anyone was unclear) and used to generally rule out the red, blue and white die, which must be rolled, of course, otherwise the attack wouldn't be able to miss.

On the other hand, the argument that that a "black die" could be reinterpreted as "a power die upgrade" is as valid here as anywhere else. I don't think it's game breaking to say you can downgrade a gold or silver die by one step instead of losing the die entirely.

Ultimately, the answer is for your group to decide for itself. There is no explicit consensus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Ringgaard
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
I need a healer!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FAQ wrote:
Q: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black
dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice? Does
Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level? Can
Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?
A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general.
If an
effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack. For example, a
copper level Master Beastman, which ordinarily rolls 1
black die, could roll either 2 black dice or 1 silver die with
Doom! in play. Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll
power dice of any color.

This ruling from the FAQ state that any mention of a black dice in the vanila rule should be read as a power dice instead, so according to this Daze would cause you to loose a whole dice, not just downgrade it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
talzor wrote:
FAQ wrote:
Q: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black
dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice? Does
Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level? Can
Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?
A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general.
If an
effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack. For example, a
copper level Master Beastman, which ordinarily rolls 1
black die, could roll either 2 black dice or 1 silver die with
Doom! in play. Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll
power dice of any color.

This ruling from the FAQ state that any mention of a black dice in the vanila rule should be read as a power dice instead, so according to this Daze would cause you to loose a whole dice, not just downgrade it.


Quite the opposite.

This means that Daze will cause you to loose one 'boost' not one die.

The answer does not indicate that you must swap the words 'power die' for 'black die' whenever they appear, but that 'black dice' refers to power dice 'in general' which means it refers to 'one power boost'. This is made clear in the Doom example given.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Ringgaard
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
I need a healer!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think I agree. I read the paragraph as 2 separate rules.
Quote:
For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general.

All references to black dice should be read as power dice. And the RtL rules very clearly define power dice as a black, silver or gold dice, not an upgrade.

And then separated by punctuation:
Quote:
If an effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack.

Effects adding black dice instead adds a boost. I.e. adding dice is a specific case where the rule is different from the above.

While I can definitely see the attraction of treating adding and loosing dice the same, I'm not convinced it's the right interpretation. An added benefit of my interpretation is that is doesn't trivialize Daze as much in the later stages of the game, keeping Daze's at approx. the same relative strength.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
talzor wrote:
I don't think I agree. I read the paragraph as 2 separate rules.
Quote:
For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general.

All references to black dice should be read as power dice.

But you aren't reading the whole sentence. By adding 'in general' it changes the meaning from 'swap the word black for the word power' to 'as a generalisation (ie not specific) an effect referring to black dice means referring the power dice system'.
The power dice system is 'generalised', specified dice are not.
No?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Ringgaard
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
I need a healer!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Alright, I'll buy that. In my interpretation the "in general" is superfluously and if we assume that everything was written for a reason (a bit of a stretch, but none-the-less, how else are we suppose to interpret rules) then your argument is valid.
Bit of a shame really, I liked the idea that Daze would scale a bit with the campaign level. It seems a bit of a waste that abilities like Bleed, Burn and Swarm becomes weaker and weaker as heroes and monsters get more wounds and dice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Retired Hurt

Brussels
Unspecified
msg tools
It is a waste perhaps, but I don't see this as necessarily wrong.
As the level of the campaign (and the monsters) climbs, brute force (that is, damage and power surges) becomes more important compared to side effects.
This seems to fit with the idea that the world becomes wilder and more brutal as the plot progresses and the overlord extends his influence.

Notice, however, that bleed and burn keep some importance when ordinary damage is too easily blocked.

As a matter of fact, one house rule that has been suggested is to make power surges more efficient for the OL as the level climbs ; e.g. 2 threat for 3 surges (and still 1 for 2) at Silver, and 1 threat per surge at Gold. Aren't they for the heroes ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chris ward
Scotland
Paisley
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everybody for your replies. Looks like there wasn't the clear consensus that I expected. we'll probably go with daze = 1 power surge, but I'll talk it over with my playing partner (my daughter) and see if she has any preference.

- Chris
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Retired Hurt

Brussels
Unspecified
msg tools
Of course, Daze will still be powerful against creatures which don't roll power dice. An Ogre or Giant with one less die is rather weakened.
And remember that Daze countrers don't wipe off, so that you can end up attacking the base dice anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BTW, I forgot to mention it but we did include this question in the FAQ proposal sent to FFG several months back. So if they do bring out a final FAQ for 1Ed after 2Ed is released, an official answer is likely.

This is what we sent (less most of the formatting):

Quote:
13. Daze
Background:
Relevant FAQ entries and rules:
Q: What happens if a hero uses a power potion or fatigue to boost an attack while he has one or more Daze tokens on him?
A: Firstly, the power potion takes effect. Then the daze tokens remove dice from that modified pool.

Q; When the overlord plays the Weakness card to remove power dice from a hero's attack, can a hero still spend fatigue after his attack roll to
add power dice?
A: Yes.

Daze
Each time a figure attacks when it has one or more daze tokens on it, it loses 1 die (either yellow, green, or black) from its attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the figure’s owner.

List of options for adding and removing power dice:

Adding/Upgrade options for Heroes beyond trait dice:
Fatigue (prior to the attack roll – if applicable; see #62), Power Potion, Fatigue (after the attack roll), Alex the Wise, Pico, Roger´s Lucky Doubloon

Adding/Upgrade options for Monsters:
"Doom!" cards, Titan Special Ability, Beastman Lord Bloodthirst upgrade, threat in outdoor encounters (before [again, see #62.] and after the attack roll), Swarm ability, "Dark Power" card (assuming it works like five upgrades), Bash ability

Removing possibilities for Heroes
Daze tokens, "Weakness" card

Removing possibilities for Monsters:
Daze tokens

"Weakness" on heroes removes all power dice (obviously including those obtained by a Power Potion and assumingly all power dice by other immediately valid sources), then the hero may still add dice with fatigue
(as per the FAQ). The combination of "Weakness" on a hero with Daze tokens is treated in a separate question below.

"Adding power dice" in an AC can always be translated to "add a black die" or "upgrade a black or silver die" as per the current FAQ ruling. It is not clear, whether the effect of a Daze token works inversely to that mechanism. The FAQ ruling on pg.17 also tells us to interpret “black die” as “power die in general”, which is even more confusing in the case of Daze.

Questions:
Q1. Does a Daze token (when applied to a power die in an AC) effectively work like a downgrade of a die, or does it remove a power die regardless of its color?
A1-1. A Daze token removes any selected power die completely, regardless of its color (black, silver or gold). After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A1-2. A Daze token works like a downgrade of a power die. A black die would be removed, a silver or gold die would be downgraded to black or silver, respectively. It is possible to apply the effect of several Daze tokens to a silver or gold power die. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A1-3. Something else?


Clearly I believe that the appropriate answer should be A1-2. But the option for FFG to choose A1-1 is provided.

Quote:
The timing of when to apply the effect of Daze tokens and when to apply bonus dice from any source can be important. E.g. if a hero does not have any power dice in his attack pool, he would be forced to lose a yellow or green die, which he could avoid if he got any bonus dice first. The FAQ ruling regarding the interaction of a Power Potion and Daze seems to imply that adding bonus dice comes first, then Daze takes effect. Sadly, the part of the question regarding fatigue was not answered, which is important since fatigue can be used both before and after the attack roll to add power dice. Is this mechanism (add first, then remove) to be generalized? How are excess bonus dice treated, i.e. are they lost at the moment they can´t be added to the attack? Is it possible that Daze tokens do not interact with certain bonus die effects, e.g. Bash bonus power die or those from the "Dark Power" card (some people suggested that, however, this would lead to even further and more complicated questions)?

Q2. What is the timing and interaction of effects that add power dice and Daze?
A2-1. All bonus dice from whatever source applicable before the roll are applied first. Any excess bonus dice (more than five black dice in Vanilla or five gold dice in an AC) are wasted for this attack. Then Daze comes into effect and removes dice according to the choice of the attacker. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A2-2. All bonus dice from whatever source applicable before the roll are applied first. Any excess bonus dice (more than five black dice in Vanilla or five gold dice in an AC) can be used against the Daze tokens the figure has on it. Then Daze comes into effect and removes dice according to the choice of the attacker. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A2-3. Bonus dice from the effects ABC (select items from list above) are applied first (any excess bonus dice are lost / may be kept for the Daze tokens (pick one)), then the Daze tokens are applied, then the effects XYZ (remaining items from the list above) are applied. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A2-4. Daze tokens are applied first, but the OL (by spending threat in an outdoor encounter or by playing a "Dark Power" card) or the hero (by spending fatigue) can avoid the loss of yellow or green dice at that point. Then all other bonus die effects are applied. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A2-5. Daze tokens are always applied first then all bonus die effects are applied. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.
A2-6. Something else?
A2-7. Both effects are accounted for simultaneously (including spending fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) before the roll). Then any remaining bonus dice or Daze tokens are applied. After the roll, power dice can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.

Note: A2-4, A2-5 and A2-7 would represent a change from the current FAQ ruling (A2-3 as well if Power Potions are in the XYZ part).
Note: A2-7 is basically another, perhaps clearer way to word A2-4 and A2-2.

If applicable, add to the selected answer: Daze tokens do not interact with bonus dice resulting from ABC (select from list), these power dice are effectively immune against removal via Daze. (This needs follow-up Q&A´s!)



Do Daze tokens have an influence on the maximum of power dice, i.e. enforce a cap on that, since -according to the rules- the attacker "loses" these dice?

Q3. Do Daze tokens have any effect on the maximum of power dice of an attack?
A3-1. There is no change in the maximum of power dice or upgrades the attacker can have.
A3-2. Power dice lost by Daze tokens are lost for the attack. The maximum number of power dice (5 power dice of any color) is reduced according to the number of power dice lost (lost yellow or green dice do not influence that).
Example: If the attacker chose to lose a yellow and two black dice, he may roll only up to three black/silver/gold dice in that attack (the yellow die of course stays lost).
A3-3. Power dice downgrades lost by Daze tokens are lost for the attack. The maximum number of power dice upgrades (5 gold dice = 15 upgrades) is reduced according to the number of power dice downgrades lost (lost yellow or green dice do not influence that).
Example: If the attacker chose to lose a green and two black dice (or two downgrades), he may roll only up to four gold and one black power die (totaling 13 upgrades) in his attack (the green die of course stays lost).

Note: Maybe both answers A3-2 and A3-3 are correct, for Vanilla and AC, respectively. The answer to Q3. also depends on the answer to Q1.

It is unclear how excess Daze tokens (i.e. more Daze tokens than the attacker has dice to lose - this can easily happen with powerful weapons that apply Daze tokens) interact with power dice that can be added after an attack roll (or after the application of Daze, depending on the answer to Q2). Is the excess always "wasted" or does the attacker still have to compensate these before he can add extra power dice?

Q4. Do excess Daze tokens have any effect on power dice that are added to an attack roll after the Daze tokens have been resolved?
A4-1. No, after the Daze tokens have been resolved, the attacker can freely add power dice or benefit from any applicable bonus dice.
A4-2. Yes, the effect of the excess Daze tokens is still in force. Any subsequently added or applied bonus dice will be "neutralized" until the excess is used up. After that, any remaining bonus power dice are applied normally and can be added via fatigue or threat (in an outdoor encounter) as usual.

Q5. What happens if the OL plays "Weakness" on a hero that has one or more Daze tokens?
A5-1. Weakness removes all power dice (including any bonus dice from whatever source) from the attack first, then Daze removes yellow or green dice (if any). Subsequently, after the roll power dice can be added via fatigue as usual.
A5-2. Daze is accounted for first, so a wise hero player would apply the Daze tokens to any power dice which will be removed by Weakness anyway. Then Weakness removes any remaining power dice. Subsequently, after the roll power dice can be added via fatigue as usual.


This assumes that the effects of Daze and Weakness are executed at the same time. If this is not correct, please state when Weakness is to be executed in view of the answer to Q2.



As you can see, Daze is a complicated subject when you look at it closely.
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Ringgaard
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
I need a healer!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
These are all very good questions and excellently presented. I hope FFG stays committed to updating the FAQ now and then, even after the 2nd Edition since it looks to be a quite different game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
I've never otherwise disagreed with Corbon but I do here.

The presented ruling refers only to boosts, never to subtractions. It's a stretch to assume it works both ways, there are no other indications that it does.

Daze says
Quote:
Each time a figure attacks while it has one or more daze tokens on it, it loses one die (either yellow, black, or green) from its attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the figure's owner. If there are more daze tokens on the figure than the number of yellow, green and black dice used in its attacks it loses all such dice.


It's quite obviously meant to remove entire dice, not downgrade them. Given other rulings we know that we should generally consider that "black dice" means "power dice".

Nowhere else are levels of power dice considered individual dice in their own regard.

I read the "in general" as it means power dice in general as in, "any of the included power dice" not "generally we're referring to power dice some of the time"

Saying it means "one power boost" is a stretch of the wording to tie it directly into the next sentence and make it a single thought instead of two separate thoughts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Digitality wrote:

It's quite obviously meant to remove entire dice, not downgrade them. Given other rulings we know that we should generally consider that "black dice" means "power dice".

Nowhere else are levels of power dice considered individual dice in their own regard.


This rule is from before power dice had levels. Everywhere power dice are considered individual dice outside of AC rules.

Quote:
I read the "in general" as it means power dice in general as in, "any of the included power dice" not "generally we're referring to power dice some of the time"

Saying it means "one power boost" is a stretch of the wording to tie it directly into the next sentence and make it a single thought instead of two separate thoughts.


You appear to be thinking the 'in general' is attached to the base rule. It is not, it is attached to the AC rule which therefore implicitly considers power dice as having levels - unlike the base rule where power dice are only considered as 'whole dice'.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
corbon wrote:
Digitality wrote:

It's quite obviously meant to remove entire dice, not downgrade them. Given other rulings we know that we should generally consider that "black dice" means "power dice".

Nowhere else are levels of power dice considered individual dice in their own regard.


This rule is from before power dice had levels. Everywhere power dice are considered individual dice outside of AC rules.

Quote:
I read the "in general" as it means power dice in general as in, "any of the included power dice" not "generally we're referring to power dice some of the time"

Saying it means "one power boost" is a stretch of the wording to tie it directly into the next sentence and make it a single thought instead of two separate thoughts.


You appear to be thinking the 'in general' is attached to the base rule. It is not, it is attached to the AC rule which therefore implicitly considers power dice as having levels - unlike the base rule where power dice are only considered as 'whole dice'.


As to the first point,more clearly I meant that specifically the individual levels of a single power die are not considered whole dice in their own regard. Yes the die itself is whole, but the various levels of it are not separate from one another. It is only a single die.

I still say we have no example of the "boost rule" working in reverse to lower the level of a die. Fair enough to say that it's very limited in scope and FFG may have simply over looked it though. RAW, however, states only that this effect occurs where power dice may be added.

We do have this ruling from the FAQ though, in regards to how an effect that works on black dice normally actually changes to effect any power dice.

Quote:
Q: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black
dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice? Does
Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level? Can
Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?

A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general. If an
effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack. For example, a
copper level Master Beastman, which ordinarily rolls 1
black die, could roll either 2 black dice or 1 silver die with
Doom! in play. Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll
power dice of any color.


I don't believe the "in general" is attached to the base rule. I was simply giving my interpretation of how it should be read. That is, to substitute the words "black die/dice" with "power die/dice". This is a separate thought from the sentence that includes the boost rule that is, in fact, answering a second question altogether. Though because it is somewhat related all of it is included under a single FAQ entry.

Read literally, the Daze ability removes whole dice, not levels of dice, and the parenthesis are a clarification as to which dice may be removed. In which, given the FAQ ruling, you would substitute power (which can be gold, silver, or black) for black.

Quote:
Each time a figure attacks when it has one or more daze tokens on it, it loses 1 die (either yellow, green, or black) from its attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the figure's owner. If there are more daze tokens on the figure than the number of yellow, green, and black dice used in its attack, it loses all such dice.


It states expressly that you lose 1 die. To read that as a reverse boost would then be to read a Gold Power die as counting as three dice in it's own right, and a Silver as two dice in it's own right.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Digitality wrote:

I don't believe the "in general" is attached to the base rule.


It explicitly is, in ACs. When playing an AC you can't read the base rules alone without referring to the AC rules which modify them.

Quote:
Read literally, the Daze ability removes whole dice, not levels of dice, and the parenthesis are a clarification as to which dice may be removed. In which, given the FAQ ruling, you would substitute power (which can be gold, silver, or black) for black.


We've already covered that. The Daze rule is a vanilla rule in which power levels are individual dice.
If you are playing an AC you must take into account that vanilla rules may be modified or replaced entirely by AC rules. The vanilla rules are not 'in isolation' so to speak.

Quote:
Quote:
Each time a figure attacks when it has one or more daze tokens on it, it loses 1 die (either yellow, green, or black) from its attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the figure's owner. If there are more daze tokens on the figure than the number of yellow, green, and black dice used in its attack, it loses all such dice.


It states expressly that you lose 1 die. To read that as a reverse boost would then be to read a Gold Power die as counting as three dice in it's own right, and a Silver as two dice in it's own right.


Yes.
Of course it states expressly that you lose one die, its a vanilla rule.

As to Trenloe/Lyssa - you can't reroll partial dice. So they have expressly covered their situations to be clear.

Do you truly think that when rule A says 'add one power dice' and rule B says 'subtract one power dice' that these two rules do not exactly cancel each other?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
corbon wrote:
Digitality wrote:

I don't believe the "in general" is attached to the base rule.


It explicitly is, in ACs. When playing an AC you can't read the base rules alone without referring to the AC rules which modify them.

Quote:
Read literally, the Daze ability removes whole dice, not levels of dice, and the parenthesis are a clarification as to which dice may be removed. In which, given the FAQ ruling, you would substitute power (which can be gold, silver, or black) for black.


We've already covered that. The Daze rule is a vanilla rule in which power levels are individual dice.
If you are playing an AC you must take into account that vanilla rules may be modified or replaced entirely by AC rules. The vanilla rules are not 'in isolation' so to speak.

Quote:
Quote:
Each time a figure attacks when it has one or more daze tokens on it, it loses 1 die (either yellow, green, or black) from its attack for each daze token on it. The dice lost are chosen by the figure's owner. If there are more daze tokens on the figure than the number of yellow, green, and black dice used in its attack, it loses all such dice.


It states expressly that you lose 1 die. To read that as a reverse boost would then be to read a Gold Power die as counting as three dice in it's own right, and a Silver as two dice in it's own right.


Yes.
Of course it states expressly that you lose one die, its a vanilla rule.

As to Trenloe/Lyssa - you can't reroll partial dice. So they have expressly covered their situations to be clear.

Do you truly think that when rule A says 'add one power dice' and rule B says 'subtract one power dice' that these two rules do not exactly cancel each other?


It's a logical inference to make, but is no less an assumption. I would say it's no more of a connection to make than the one I drew to Trenloe and Lyssa, albeit different reasoning brings you down a different path to a different conclusion.

The Tren/Lys ruling is a clear example of the effect of black die being converted to mean (any) power die and scaling up with the level of the die in question. It even finds itself in the same place as the boost rule in the FAQ in relevance to how we should treat the mention black dice.

I do not expressly disagree with your interpretation because there is nothing I can provide to prove you wrong, but rather I believe there are (as seems often to be the case in Descent) multiple ways to interpret the rule based on the reading of the language.

As to the "power dice in general" I agree that it is referring to the AC rules, (there is little room for it not to be) before you'd said I'd thought it was attached to the base rule. However I read it to mean "any of the available power dice included in the AC" and not so much referring to them in levels wholly separate from each other. To do the latter would be to connect the first and second sentences of the FAQ ruling into a single idea.

I would say that downgrading a die does not fulfill the requirements of removing a die for Daze, because the individual levels of the power dice are not a die in their own right.

The boost ruling is a logical one that makes sense and has precedent in that dice may already be upgraded via fatigue. It tells us that in situations where we would read "add a black power die" to instead mean "add one boost". I would not take this to mean that a boost is the equivalent to an entire die. We are told to entirely replace the word die here with word boost, never that they are interchangeably synonymous.

If we are to consider each level of a power dice as a separate die then ever rolling more than 5 levels worth of power dice would be breaking the hard limit of only 5 power dice allowed in an attack roll.

As per

JitD Rulebook PG 10 (under using Fatigue) wrote:
However, an attacker may never roll more than five total power dice for a single attack.


That is not how I would interpret the rules myself. I see no such reason to associate levels of dice with being individual dice, and if they are not individual dice then reducing the level of a die cannot fulfill the requirement of removing a die that Daze demands.

If you read Daze as "subtract a boost" then that conflicts with the idea that it may also remove yellow and green dice, which are never considered to be boosts. I do not agree that you can selectively apply the boost ruling to only a third of the ability, while reading it differently in regards to the other two types of dice.

--------------------

The clarify and summarize.

The language of effects that add black dice has been modified to instead add "boosts" due to the FAQ ruling. in that ruling the term "boost" is clearly defined. The language of Daze has not been changed, and mentions black dice in clarification as to which dice qualify for removal. We are however told to read "black dice" as "power dice" instead and so any power dice qualify for removal.

To sort of "reverse engineer" the process of changing added dice into boosts and saying that upping a dice level is equivalent to adding a die and so the reverse must be true is to create an error in interpretation that may present conflict with other rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Digitality wrote:

The clarify and summarize.

The language of effects that add black dice has been modified to instead add "boosts" due to the FAQ ruling. in that ruling the term "boost" is clearly defined. The language of Daze has not been changed, and mentions black dice in clarification as to which dice qualify for removal. We are however told to read "black dice" as "power dice" instead and so any power dice qualify for removal.


We are going in circles here. You insist that the Daze rule must be read exactly, which I find to be equivalent to 'in isolation', I say that the Daze rule should be recognised as a vanilla rule, which is modified by AC changes (in ACs).

Quote:
To sort of "reverse engineer" the process of changing added dice into boosts and saying that upping a dice level is equivalent to adding a die and so the reverse must be true is to create an error in interpretation that may present conflict with other rules.


Where is the conflict in applying the AC rule where power dice equal 'power level'? There is none.

But hey, obviously it is not clear enough for a complex situation, that is why we had such a long and complicated post that we sent to FFG for them to clarify!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
I've not said that the Daze rule should be read in isolation, but rather that it doesn't truly qualify for the modifications you want to apply to it.

My point is that it seems you've concluded, via the Boost ruling, that boost = die. In specific examples that the Boost rule covers though we're no longer talking about adding dice, we're talking about adding boosts, which are separately defined and for the purposes of the game mechanics are not the same thing.

I feel that it's a mistake to look at the levels of a power die as qualifying as a die. The boost example is the only such example that comes close to doing so, and even then, it entirely replaces the terminology of die altogether, so I don't see it as a fit example.

As I illustrated in my previous post, if they are indeed to be considered individual dice then one could never roll more than the 5 power die limit. I cannot believe this to be the intent.

Even still, the mention of black dice in Daze is only to clarify the dice that are available for removal. Following the same FAQ entry the term "black dice" can easily be replaced by "power dice" (thus modified by the AC rules) without tying it directly to the boost rule (a separate thought) and claiming the reverse should be true.

Without further alteration to Daze all we can do is take it for what is present. Vanilla or not, it was reprinted into the RTL rulebook as is. There is nothing in the FAQ or otherwise to modify the removal of power dice, only that we should read the term "black dice" instead as "power dice".

Your ruling as presented can only fulfill the demands of Daze if you consider individual levels of power dice as separate from each other. I don't believe they are.

The error in interpretation I present you with is that you are taking the FAQ entry of

Quote:
Q: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black
dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice? Does
Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level? Can
Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?
A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general. If an
effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack. For example, a
copper level Master Beastman, which ordinarily rolls 1
black die, could roll either 2 black dice or 1 silver die with
Doom! in play. Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll
power dice of any color.


and combing the first two sentences of the answer into single thought so that the term "power die" essentially means "boost". Daze may contain the term power die without any reference to the boost ruling at all while still following that first sentence. We also have other examples where black die has been replaced by power die without reference at all to the boost system. Further reinforcing that these are two separate thoughts.

We also have this ruling out of the FAQ

Quote:
Q: What happens if a hero uses a power potion or fatigue
to boost an attack while he has one or more Daze tokens
on him?
A: Firstly, the power potion takes effect. Then the daze
tokens remove dice from that modified pool.


Wherein FFG makes no attempt to mention that boost levels are lost, but that dice are still removed. Mind you that boosts had been mentioned therein.

Perhaps merely an overlooked opportunity, but to me it illustrates that boost and die are not interchangeable terms. It's a one way change given for specific examples.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Digitality wrote:
I've not said that the Daze rule should be read in isolation, but rather that it doesn't truly qualify for the modifications you want to apply to it.

My point is that it seems you've concluded, via the Boost ruling, that boost = die.


Nope. Just that, when adding (or subtracting) power die in ACs, you instead add or subtract one power die level.
'Boost' clearly does not equal die, generally. Read the power pot rule.

Quote:
As I illustrated in my previous post, if they are indeed to be considered individual dice then one could never roll more than the 5 power die limit. I cannot believe this to be the intent.


Me either. But if you insist on misapplying the rule, then you'll get screwed results.

Quote:

The error in interpretation I present you with is that you are taking the FAQ entry of

Quote:
Q: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black
dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice? Does
Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level? Can
Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?
A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black
die, read it as referring to power dice in general.
If an
effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power
potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had
spent one fatigue to enhance its attack.
For example, a
copper level Master Beastman, which ordinarily rolls 1
black die, could roll either 2 black dice or 1 silver die with
Doom! in play. Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll
power dice of any color.


and combing the first two sentences of the answer into single thought so that the term "power die" essentially means "boost".


Underlined is the rule, italicised is an explanation of the rule, then there is an example of the rule.
They are not separate thoughts.
Last is a different rule for a different question.

Quote:
Daze may contain the term power die without any reference to the boost ruling at all while still following that first sentence.


It is an effect that refers to a black die, so it should be converted to refer to power dice in general. And then the explanation that adding a power die means adding a boost, thus subtracting a power die means subtracting a boost.

Quote:
We also have other examples where black die has been replaced by power die without reference at all to the boost system. Further reinforcing that these are two separate thoughts.


They simply didn't cover black die/power die at all in the basic RtL rules, which leads to some potential screwups.

So the FAQ ruling is generalised and covers everything.


Quote:
We also have this ruling out of the FAQ

Quote:
Q: What happens if a hero uses a power potion or fatigue
to boost an attack while he has one or more Daze tokens
on him?
A: Firstly, the power potion takes effect. Then the daze
tokens remove dice from that modified pool.


Wherein FFG makes no attempt to mention that boost levels are lost, but that dice are still removed. Mind you that boosts had been mentioned therein.

Perhaps merely an overlooked opportunity, but to me it illustrates that boost and die are not interchangeable terms. It's a one way change given for specific examples.


Hello?
That is a WOD ruling from prior to RtL and explicitly in the WoD section. It is purely talking about adding extra black dice to an attack through fatigue or using a power pot to roll all 5 black die. It has nothing to do with AC power dice levels at all.

It also uses boosts differently, as an adjective, not a noun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
My error in the last part there. I'd overlooked the section of the FAQ I read it in.

I will disagree that both of those sentences are a single answer as that section asks 3 questions and gives 3 answers.

The "power dice in general" part to me reads more along the lines of "If it says black die, take it to instead mean any power die of any color." Which I feel is a fair interpretation.

Especially when we look to the definition of general.

Quote:
gen·er·al
adj.
1. Concerned with, applicable to, or affecting the whole or every member of a class or category: "subduing all her impressions as a woman, to something more general" (Virginia Woolf).
2. Affecting or characteristic of the majority of those involved; prevalent: general discontent.
3. Of or affecting the entire body: general paralysis.
4. Being usually the case; true or applicable in most instances but not all: the general correctness of her decisions.
5.
a. Not limited in scope, area, or application: as a general rule.
b. Not limited to or dealing with one class of things; diversified: general studies.
6. Involving only the main features rather than precise details: a general grasp of the subject.
7. Highest or superior in rank: the general manager.


I don't think we'll come to an agreement here on this issue though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heinrich Keller
Denmark
flag msg tools
corbon wrote:

Nope. Just that, when adding (or subtracting) power die in ACs, you instead add or subtract one power die level.
'Boost' clearly does not equal die, generally. Read the power pot rule.


I may just be missing this bit, where did you find any support for it being allowed to substract a boost from a die?

The way i'm reading this the steps are:
1. Apply boosts until you get your final die-set(not exceeding the 5 die max)
2. Remove 1 die per daze token.

This also means daze stays interesting throughout the campaign, which isn't a bad thing really.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Grubsnik wrote:
corbon wrote:

Nope. Just that, when adding (or subtracting) power die in ACs, you instead add or subtract one power die level.
'Boost' clearly does not equal die, generally. Read the power pot rule.


I may just be missing this bit, where did you find any support for it being allowed to substract a boost from a die?


i)A: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black die, read it as referring to power dice in general.
So, Daze in RtL does not mean subtract a 'die', it means subtract a Yellow, Green or 'power die in general' (which is not entirely clear what that means, however, see ii) below).

ii)If an effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had spent one fatigue to enhance its attack.
Since Doom tells us to 'add one power die', yet the RtL conversion of it according to this answer says 'add one boost', this tells us that 'one power die' = 'one boost' when we are talking about effects (except where specified otherwise, such as Trenloe, etc). Note that this does not mean that one boost automatically means one power die.
Therefore, when Daze tells us to subtract one (power) die, we convert it in RtL-speak to 'subtract one not-power-die (green or yellow) or one boost (instead of black).

Quote:
The way i'm reading this the steps are:
1. Apply boosts until you get your final die-set(not exceeding the 5 die max)
2. Remove 1 die per daze token.


Except that in step 2. you aren't converting the daze rule to RtL-speak, you are using the vanilla rule.

Quote:
This also means daze stays interesting throughout the campaign, which isn't a bad thing really.

Does it?
My experience is the opposite. Daze from monsters is almost irrelevant as it is nearly always one token at a time, assuming the hero doesn't get rid of it at the start of his turn anyway. And gold heroes tend to barely notice a single die lost anyway - they have massive overkill on 90+% of their attacks.
The heroes on the other hand, tend to pile on multiple daze tokens at once when they use them at all, which means that if you remove a die per token, even diamond monsters are quickly reduced to a single base dice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corbon Loughnan
Indonesia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Digitality wrote:

I will disagree that both of those sentences are a single answer as that section asks 3 questions and gives 3 answers.


Lets break it down then.

I'm going to assume your three Q and 3 A answers fit like this:
Q1: When effects from “vanilla” Descent refer to black dice, how do they relate to silver and gold dice?
A1: For Road to Legend, when an effect refers to a black die, read it as referring to power dice in general.

This answer is a nice general answer to a fairly general question. It pretty much covers anything and everything - any effect that refers to a black die, including Daze.

Q2: Does Doom! still add black dice at gold campaign level?
A2: If an effect adds a black die to a roll (such as Doom! or a power potion), it instead adds one “boost” as if the subject had spent one fatigue to enhance its attack. (beastman example)
.
This is clearly a 'general answer', since it talks about effects in general, and then uses two specific effects as examples of 'effects').
BUT this has already been answered by the first answer. Doom is an effect from vanilla Descent that refers to black dice, so it should now refer to power dice in general. So this clearly isn't just 'an answer', since the first answer already covers this exact situation precisely.
However, when we then parse that first answer we find that it is too general, and we still don't actually know how to apply it. How do we "add a power dice in general"? What does that mean?
So the second 'answer' is in fact an explanation of what the first answer means, which handily answers the second question, though in a more expanded way than necessary.

Q3: Can Trenloe the Strong and Lyssa reroll silver and gold dice?
A3: Lyssa and Trenloe the Strong may reroll power dice of any color.

And this is a specific answer to a specific question, not really related to the other answers, just as the 3rd question isn't really related to the first two.


Quote:
The "power dice in general" part to me reads more along the lines of "If it says black die, take it to instead mean any power die of any color." Which I feel is a fair interpretation.


Except that is not how the Doom example is applied. Doom adds a boost, not a 'power die of any colour'. So the very first time your interpretation of the rule is applied, it comes up with a different answer to the FAQ.

Quote:
I don't think we'll come to an agreement here on this issue though.

Probably not, but if you keep throwing flawed arguments at me, I'll probably keep answering them if time and energy allow.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.