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Subject: My love of summoner wars is dying. rss

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Dustin
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Yeah this will probably come off as a rant. But oh wells.

When I first started playing I voiced concerns over CUEs being broke and how stupid killing your own units is. Everyone told me to just give it time, won't seem as broke. Well, over 300 games later... IT'S BROKE

Please tell me how it's balanced, that I have a Fighter & Slinger in play, they have Gror and they get 2 free units or 2-4 of my mana? It's not. So many ways these CUEs could have been fixed. A simple "Can't be played if you control more champions than opponent". Heck, that alone would encourage common unit play. But nope, everyone stays away from them because of CUEs. When a single card is effecting how MOST players play, it's a problem.

And it still bugs me that you can attack your own units. Most people I play start attacking their own units on turn 1. In no way should a game encourage you to kill your own army. A simple fix would be for it not to give you mana... or to simply not have it at all.

Against skill players this game has become nothing more than playing against CUEs and constantly killing your own units.

Now don't get me wrong, I still really like the game. It's such a shame CUEs control much of the action. I went from loving the game, to just liking it. My game group feels the same way. So this isn't just sore losing or something.
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Jonathan Powell
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Sorry, what are CUEs?
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Markus
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SeerMagic wrote:
Everyone told me to just give it time, won't seem as broke. Well, over 300 games later... IT'S BROKE


This is dire news! Maybe you should add Summoner Wars to my recent These games are broken! geeklist?
 
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Bryan Stout
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CUE = Catch-up event

To the OP: I dare say that most groups do not rely on the kill-your-own-units-dependent strategy that your group seems to have dug themselves into. I'll let others explore that with you.

I'll just ask: do only have the GD/CG starter set? Why don't see if you can grab a few other factions to try out? Or grab the Master Set when it hits the shelves in October. If your group has put so much time into SWs so far, either option would be a great investment. It will give you many different play styles to explore -- lots of fun for a long time.
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Thomas Staudt
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SeerMagic wrote:
... Well, over 300 games later... IT'S BROKE ...


I can't imagine anyone playing a BROKEN game 300 times.

Actually, if it was fun enough to be played 300 times, I wouldn't care if it was BROKEN beyond repair ...
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Jeremy Yoder
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I love the game, but I won't argue that everyone should. Still, it sounds like you've *easily* got your money's worth.

I will say in your scenario of dwarves vs goblins, that just because dwarves can look good in a moment, doesn't mean they'll win. Goblins can likewise look good with their own well-timed events and champions. It's not a "fair" game in the sense of perfectly equal teams, especially given card draws and dice-rolling. You'd only have to worry if dwarves won the majority of games, and we've not experienced that at all.

For the record, the last 2 games I played, I won because my opponent killed off too many of his units too quickly, so I rushed him, which lost him the game. That can't always work, but there is an ebb and flow beauty to the game, but that's doesn't mean it's for everyone.

Like I said, I'm not going to try to convince others they have to like the game, but to claim it's broken (after 300 plays!) doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be fun, and if that factor is no longer there for you (for whatever reason) then sell/give it to someone else.
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Almarr Ormarsson
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I'm pretty new to the game having only played around 10 games or so and I love it. I'm sorry you feel this way and maybe you're right, maybe CUEs are broken. But have you thought about house ruling? You propose fixes so why don't you try them? You can't attack your own units and you can only play CUEs if you have fewer champions then your opponent.
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Andy Andersen
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ashman wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
... Well, over 300 games later... IT'S BROKE ...


I can't imagine anyone playing a BROKEN game 300 times.

Actually, if it was fun enough to be played 300 times, I wouldn't care if it was BROKEN beyond repair ...


I'm lucky if I get to play a game 25-30 times. 300? Wow.
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Jason Cookingham
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Orangemoose wrote:
I'm lucky if I get to play a game 25-30 times. 300? Wow.


If I got 300 plays out of a game, then I would be writing a love letter to the designer.
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Joseph Arthur Ellis
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It's well established that "Catch Up Event" is a misnomer. They don't actually help the person who is in last. They help you if you have less units. It doesn't make the game unbalanced but it is misleading to call them CUEs.

CUEs controlling so much of the action... you've apparently played the game a couple hundred times more than I have, but it still sounds like groupthink to me. If your group is THAT concerned about losing two magic to the opponent once or twice per game, maybe an effective strategy could be to COMPLETELY ignore that factor and end up overwhelming your opponent by using an undervalued strategy like rushing.

Especially with the CG, who cares if you lose a little magic?? It's so easy to build up enough magic in a turn to do whatever you need. The goblins need very little magic. Plus you have Blarf whom you can store magic under so that your opponent can't take it with Magic Drain.

(Then, when you need the magic, just kill him. For some reason that bugs you but to me it's fun.) :)
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Seth Trammell
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Have him steal your magic, have him pop out commons, and then unleash the wrath of the goblin horde on gror :D I must confess if he is playing champ heavy, that somwhat takes out the effectiveness of the eater, common play can sortof be a counter to champion play. Ping on gror and then pop out a goblin horde and rage for the kill!
Sorry the CG are some of my favorite :)
Also, you could try more factions :D

CPR! CPR! Get that love pumping again!
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Fede Miguez
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I think that the 'CUE' are not that polished from what they could be, but I don't think they are unfair or broken, more like not fun to play around. And this is mainly for the PE/TO starter, I shouldn't care much about them when playing the goblins. The Master Set so far has done a good job at empowering commons so as to swallow the CUE and keep momentum up.
 
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Cory Bullock
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SeerMagic wrote:
Please tell me how it's balanced, that I have a Fighter & Slinger in play, they have Gror and they get 2 free units or 2-4 of my mana?


And then you play two Fighters, move up one Slinger, use Goblin Rage, and Goblin Horde Attack and roll 10 dice on Gror.

I've rolled 17-19 dice in one turn with the Cave Goblins. In fact, the Ultimate "Big Champion faction"--the Jungle Elves--loses to them 70+% of the time if you go look at the Google Faction Stats. So if you hate CUEs, why not sit there, build slow, hold Commons in your hand, and then pound one or two Champs with a big hand? The CG are cool because they're basically anti-the early meta.

If CUE factions really bother you that much, just get a Master Set. Then you can play with the Jungle Elves, Cave Goblins, Sand Goblins, Mountain Vargath, and Swamp Orcs and never have to play a game with a Catch-Up Event ever again. You could even throw in the Deep Dwarves and the Vanguard, since Summoning Surge is harder to trigger than Magic Drain or Reinforcements. Everything you love, without anything you hate.
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Bruno Gaia
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I love the game (look at my avatar...) and still it's true that I think that sooner or later I'll homerule the fact that when you kill your own units you don't get the mana...
It really is off topic.
(BUT in terms of mechanics, well... It works...)
All the rest in Summoner Wars is great, just great.
Sorry if, in the end, you ended up not liking it anymore.
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Caleb
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Well, as others have said, 300 games is pretty great for something as relatively inexpensive as SW. And you can always just house-rule the issue if it bothers you that much. I wonder, if you do institute a HR that if you kill your own guys, no one gets the magic, and then play 300 more games, if you'll feel it's still balanced? In other words, I wonder if those CUE's are necessary for certain factions to have a chance.
 
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Seth Trammell
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if you buy two more factions, you should get like, 600 more plays out of it :D
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Bryan Stout
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Sethy295 wrote:
if you buy to more factions, you should get like, 600 more plays out of it

Actually, with 4 factions you get 6 different pairings, so subtracting the one they have now, that would give them 1500 plays!

If they got all 14 factions currently available (assuming the Master Set is in hand), that would be 90 new pairings, giving them 27,000 more plays. The mind boggles.
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Dustin
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Barliman wrote:
I dare say that most groups do not rely on the kill-your-own-units-dependent strategy that your group seems to have dug themselves into. I'll let others explore that with you.


give it a try. if you send in a melee guy that will die after he attacks, have someone behind him in range to kill him. Do this 6 or 7 times a game you've bought a champions and taken one from them. It's true it doesn't work with all factions, but still it shouldn't be viable at all.



Barliman wrote:

I'll just ask: do only have the GD/CG starter set? Why don't see if you can grab a few other factions to try out?


I have all 14 factions.


grautur wrote:
have you thought about house ruling? You propose fixes so why don't you try them? You can't attack your own units and you can only play CUEs if you have fewer champions then your opponent.


I have, sadly we have several purist in my game group that would "rather not play a game then to change how it's suppose to be played".
 
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Seth Trammell
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Play some on Vassal with other people, and learn how to whoop up on people who use that strategy :)
Then everyone else will be forced to try out other strategies too.
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Fede Miguez
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it's cliche to say it but I don't think you are playing optimally. People should not get away doing that and playing against the CL, JE, MV or CG. There is cost of opportunity of killing your own units, leaving up board space that some factions can abuse and do enough damage to a summoner before they can spend their juicy magic on a big champion, or even bring it but not be enough to protect your summoner.
For the record, I am of the people that think that if your opponent gets more than 5 magic from you, you are feeding him (ok, depends on the faction but generally it applies).
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KevOne
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Dustin, try play with or against the REST of other faction before you claim anything "broken" Summoner Wars and it's CUE card is far from it.

I main Cloak and when player plays the unit count-war with me, the better my Cloak can get.

Heck go get the master set and you'll see even less of a problem with CUE card...

This whole thread is just one silly pointless rant, it feels like when people complain about the power of Dragon Punch or Fireball in street fighter and calling everything they cannot deal with "broken" LOLz whistle

edit: in all seriousness, what you own anyways? I really want to try helping you get through that "CUE is broken" mentality
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Seth Trammell
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He said he has all 14....
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Geoff Speare
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Maybe this guy can help:

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Joseph Rodenbeck
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Even Captain Picard knew that killing your own guys was sometimes necessary for the greater good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQE68zKPQ0#t=05m55s

Also, this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth
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I'm not left-handed either
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I can't speak from 300 plays-worth experience, or anything remotely close to that.

However, I think my preferred playstyle is the most vulnerable possible toward an opponent playing with CUEs. I generally pressure at every opportunity, but also try to have my burn rate no higher than my opponent's. I average 1-2 Champions out a game, and focus heavily on Commons. As a result I Summon most of the Commons which come through my hand, and very seldom have a Magic pile of more that 3 Cards. I often Build my own Magic Drains, rather than attempting to set them up, and I essentially ignore Unit Count.

And I don't see a problem. I can win or be competitive with my strategy against pretty highly-regarded players on Vassal. The strategy of Summoning a Unit, attacking with it, and then killing it with another Unit has major weaknesses that your opponents should be exploiting.

First of all, Melee Units have better stats than Ranged Units for their cost. You're putting a large, intimidating melee Unit in the opponent's face where it must be dealt with, and then removing it with a weaker or less valuable Unit, which the opponent can kill anyway (instead of having to kill the big melee Unit), leaving you with no Units to retaliate with instead of one; or ignore more safely, since it probably has less attack and is in a less valuable and less threatening location.

Second, you're diverting your resources toward killing your own Units instead of the opponent's. That's a good idea in only one situation: when the opponent is doing the same thing. The second one of you decides to kill the other guy's Units all the time, and block up the other guy's Walls with the Units that he otherwise was picking off from his own back ranks, that strategy should stop working in a hurry.
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