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Subject: Timing of Cards that Save Eliminated Creatures rss

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Mark Kwasny
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I was wondering about the ability to save an eliminated creature, specifically using cards such as Shaping Cantrip (Cast this Spell to return one of your just destroyed Creatures to your Ready Area (at its same level) instead of putting it in the Used Pile.) and the special power of Ghostly Spirit (When Ghostly Spirit is destroyed, you may cull 1 Basic Quiddity Die to return Ghostly Spirit to your Ready Area (for free).)

Does the Creature immediately return, and thus possibly face further attacks that same Player Turn?

Say Player A attacks Player B with an 8 attack. Player B has two Ghostly Spirits. The first Ghostly SPirit dies, and Player B culls 1 Basic Quiddity die. Does the Ghostly Spirit return to the combat and join his partner to face the remaining 6 attack? Or does he return after the combat is finished?

Same goes for the use of Shaping Cantrip - say Player B has no Basic Quiddity. So he plays his Shaping Cantrip and returns the eliminated Ghostly Spirit. Again, does it return into the middle of the Combat, or return after Combat is completed?

Thanks.
 
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brian
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As stated in the FAQ and answered in several threads, a creature can only defend once. Once it returns, it cannot be attacked again for the remainder of the current turn. The next player could attack it on his turn.
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Each monster can only be attacked once per turn -- so if it returns, it is "immune". However, this is only clarified in the FAQ, not in the rules.
 
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Mark Kwasny
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
As stated in the FAQ and answered in several threads, a creature can only defend once. Once it returns, it cannot be attacked again for the remainder of the current turn. The next player could attack it on his turn.


And where might this FAQ be located? And who compiled it? And who answered it in those threads (I looked for possible threads on this and didn't find them)? Are these answers official? Because the rules certainly do not hint at this. In fact, it is pretty exciting to have that Ghost keep coming back, dying, and seeing if the player is willing to cull several Quiddity dice in one turn! This ruling also diminishes the importance of a strong attack, if a small 2-3 defense Creature can survive a massive attack. It would be a shame if it really could only die once!
 
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Ken P

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mvkwasny wrote:


And where might this FAQ be located? And who compiled it? And who answered it in those threads (I looked for possible threads on this and didn't find them)? Are these answers official? Because the rules certainly do not hint at this. In fact, it is pretty exciting to have that Ghost keep coming back, dying, and seeing if the player is willing to cull several Quiddity dice in one turn! This ruling also diminishes the importance of a strong attack, if a small 2-3 defense Creature can survive a massive attack. It would be a shame if it really could only die once!


Try this link for the FAQ:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/686929/wizkids-faq-8152011

Created by Bryan Kinsella - The guy who developed Quarriors for WizKids.

The first entry reads:
Quote:
Q) Combat timing of the following: Shaping Cantrip: REACTION. Cast this spell to return one of your just destroyed creatures to your ready area (at its same level) instead of putting it in the used pile and Ghostly Spirit: When Ghostly Spirit is destroyed, you may cull 1 Basic Quiddity to return Ghostly Spirit to your Ready Area (for free).

A) The following rule is added: You only assign damage once to a creature per combat. So while the creatures are returned during the combat phase, they are "safe" and/or cannot use their destroyed ability more than once per combat. Leftover damage is lost.


I hope that helps.
goo
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Mark Kwasny
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Thanks, Ken, it does help!
 
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Chris Long
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One more question in regards to this, which came up last night...

Let's say you have the Quake Dragon that kills all Level 1 creatures. Does he do that before he attacks? Would that be considered part of the attack? Or do you still have to assign damage.

Essentially, I had one creature in play, and the Shaping Cantrip. My opponent played a Dragon, which killed my level 1 guy. Now I bring him back with the Shaping Spell, but at that point we were trying to decide if he dies again because of the Dragon's attack.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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radynski wrote:
One more question in regards to this, which came up last night...

Let's say you have the Quake Dragon that kills all Level 1 creatures. Does he do that before he attacks? Would that be considered part of the attack? Or do you still have to assign damage.

Essentially, I had one creature in play, and the Shaping Cantrip. My opponent played a Dragon, which killed my level 1 guy. Now I bring him back with the Shaping Spell, but at that point we were trying to decide if he dies again because of the Dragon's attack.


That Dragon specifically states that the effect happens BEFORE a defender is chosen. The damage assignment would thusly occur after the effect. Since the rules only prevent damage assignment from occuring multiple times your creature would of course be destroyed again by the attack damage. The same thing with the Death spells that destroy a creature, if you destroyed a creature before you attacked they wouldn't become immune to damage for the rest of the turn.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
As stated in the FAQ and answered in several threads, a creature can only defend once.


My mother defended an attack once. ONCE!
 
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Ken P

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Kirenx wrote:


That Dragon specifically states that the effect happens BEFORE a defender is chosen. The damage assignment would thusly occur after the effect. Since the rules only prevent damage assignment from occuring multiple times your creature would of course be destroyed again by the attack damage. The same thing with the Death spells that destroy a creature, if you destroyed a creature before you attacked they wouldn't become immune to damage for the rest of the turn.


I disagree with Kiren on this one. I think in this case that destroying the creature is essentially the same as assigning damage as far as the destroyed creature is concerned. The description on the Dragon card is to clarify that the attacking player's attack total is not modified by this ability. See the FAQ referenced previously regarding the shaping cantrip.
Quote:
You only assign damage once to a creature per combat. So while the creatures are returned during the combat phase, they are "safe"...


While the situation you describe is not directly addressed by the FAQ, I think the intent is that a creature can only be damaged or destroyed once per combat. That is only my interpretation anyway, take it or leave it. goo
edit:typo
 
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Mark Kwasny
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This is why I am uncomfortable with the ruling and new rule in the FAQ. I fear that this simple game will start down the path of "Magic" and need pages of rules on the timing of this and that. The original rules implied that these resurrections occurred immediately. So why not just leave it at that? The Creature is eliminated, it is immediately resurrected by culling a Quiddity die or by playing the Spell, and then continue on with the attack. It also leads to some interesting player decisions that are lost with the new rule and current ruling. For example, since a Reaction Spell can be played any time during another player's turn, then you can hold off until after the attack is done, then resurrect the Creature. Or maybe you want to bring it back to absorb more of the attack to protect another Creature? Simple timing, fun decisions.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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I'm confused at the disagreement or uncertainty here. The offical answer was:

Quote:
A) The following rule is added: You only assign damage once to a creature per combat. So while the creatures are returned during the combat phase, they are "safe" and/or cannot use their destroyed ability more than once per combat. Leftover damage is lost.


It specifically states that you may only assign damage once. It does not say those creatures become invincible from all other effects. The dragon card specificly states that the effect occurs before a defender is chosen, it does not say during damage assignment deal X damage to level 1 creatures. If a creature is destroyed from combat and revived there is nothing stating you would not be able to use a spell to kill it afterwards why wouldn't the same happen with spells or effects before combat?

Prehaps I am misunderstanding the rule in question but there doesn't seem to be anything complex or obscure between the basic rules and the FAX clarifications.
 
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Chris Long
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Actually, the Dragon says that when it attacks it kills all level 1 creatures. So you've already entered combat at that point. That's where my question comes in.
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Mark Kwasny
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I have been going through all of the Creatures and Spells that might have ties to this timing issue. Taking into account the new rule in the FAQ (The following rule is added: You only assign damage once to a creature per combat. So while the creatures are returned during the combat phase, they are "safe" and/or cannot use their destroyed ability more than once per combat. Leftover damage is lost.), I think timing could become even more complicated. If left alone and used just as they are written, I think the basic rules handle these cards better.

Mighty Ghostly Spirit: When Ghostly Spirit is destroyed, set Ghostly Spirit aside until you destroy ant Creature. Then roll the Ghostly Spirit: If you roll a Creature Icon, add it to your Ready Area (for free). Otherwise, add Ghostly Spirit to your Used Pile. So, does it immediately join and become part of the attack against the next player? No – rule 3 handles this: “Repeat Step 2 with each of your opponents (each opponent receives the same amount of damage as the first player!)…. Thus the resurrected Ghostly Spirit does not add its attack.

Might Deathdealer: The first time a Creature is destroyed while Deathdealer is attacking an opponent, increase your attack total against that player by Deathdealer’s attack. Use this ability only once per attack, per player. (This increase is not cumulative, start each attack against each player with your original attack value). Note here how it specifies clearly that the special power can only be used once per attack. The lack of such specific limits on later powers suggests they are to be handled differently.

Mighty Warrior of the Quay: When Warrior of the Quay is summoned, all other Warriors of the Quay in all other players’ Ready Areas are immediately destroyed. You may only summon pone Warrior of the Quay per turn. This is not part of the attack, and assigns no damage. Thus, the new rule will raise more questions about the ability to return destroyed Creatures, and whether the returned Creature takes part in the ensuing Combat. But without the new rule, a player must immediately decide whether he will use a spell to return the destroyed Creature. If so, it goes back into the Ready Area and the game continues (including being subject to attacks).

Quake Dragon: Destroy all Level 1 Creatures in your opponent’s Ready Area when you attack with Quake Dragon (before your opponent chooses a defender). Now here we have a Creature destroyed, it is part of the Attack, but still, no damage has been assigned. Hence, we now have three different times a Creature is destroyed – before the attack begins, once the attack begins but before damage is assigned, and during an attack due to damage being assigned – and there is a fourth time, when a player uses a Spell to destroy a Creature. Thus, the new rule raises the question – can a destroyed Creature that took no damage then return to the Ready Area and take damage later in the same attack? The rules keep it simple – as the Note after rule 3 says: Some Creatures have abilities that can be used then it is destroyed, or when an opponent’s Creature is destroyed. You may use these abilities now. Nowhere does it say to wait, and it does not say to use the powers but not actually implement the result until after the Attack is completed. Thus, you implement the result immediately – the Creature returns, and the game continues, including continuing the same attack.

Ghostly Spirit: When Ghostly Spirit is destroyed, you may cull 1 Basic Quiddity Die to return Ghostly Spirit to your Ready Area (for free). The new rule changes this by telling you that returned Creatures are immune to the rest of the attack. Why add exceptions and fiddly rules to a simple game? The rules are clear here, and simpler – put the returned Creature into your Ready Area and continue the game, including any on-going attack.

Shaping Cantrip: REACTION: Cast this Spell to return one of your just destroyed Creatures to your Ready Area (at its same level) instead of putting it in the Used Pile. As the rules say, You may cast a reaction spell at any time during your opponent’s turn…. When cast, this spell returns the destroyed Creature to your Ready Pile – again, why add exceptions and more rules by saying that it returns to the Ready Pile but is immune to further attack damage. Is it immune to further Spells which can destroy Creatures? The new rule leaves open more questions and timing issues. Without it, a simple direct use of the original rules handles all of this without new rules and exceptions.

Life Charm: REACTION: When you cast this spell, any of your Creatures that are destroyed for the rest of the turn go to your Active Pool instead of your Used Pile. Again, here is an example that is done differently – returned Creatures go to the Active Pile. So if this Spell is used following its specific directions (go to the Active Pile), then other cards should be used following their specific directions (return to the Ready Area – not a special, immune Ready Area).

Add all of this to my experiences that suggest some interesting player decisions are lost by implementing the new rule, and I suggest playing the game using the rules, without adding the new rule in the FAQ.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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This seems to be drifting away from not understanding the rules into the territory of "I don't think they should work that way."
 
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Ken P

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You make some really good points Mark. I think some of the discrepancy arises between the usage of the words 'damaged' and 'destroyed'. I was thinking that an ability which could "immediately destroy" another creature, like the Quake Dragon's or Mighty Warrior of the Quay's, was the same as saying "immediately damaged until destruction". In other words, a creature that is destroyed is considered to have taken damage. This may not be the case according to the designers, I don't know, that is just my interpretation.

But I like the idea of having more interesting player decisions available for the reasons you stated.

I can imagine some interesting situations that could arise. For example lets say your opponent has a Mighty Warrior of the Quay and a Shaping Cantrip in his ready area. You roll a Shaping Cantrip and a Mighty Warrior of the Quay. You summon the warrior. Your opponents warrior is destroyed. He uses the Shaping Cantrip to return the warrior to the ready area. This destroys your Warrior. You use your spell and return your warrior, destroying his warrior. This assumes that use of the shaping cantrip is considered 'summoning'.

And what about the Strong Primordial Ooze- if it copies a Mighty Warrior does it also immediately destroy the warrior?

Part of me feels silly delving into the rules of a light game like this. But at the same time everyone should agree on how to play so everyone can have fun. I've found that looking over the card set each game, and then agreeing with your group how the abilities and timing will work usually helps preempt some problems during the game.

So in the end I think you should play the game the way you and your group finds to be the most fun. That's what I'm going to do. goo
 
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Mark Kwasny
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Kirenx wrote:
This seems to be drifting away from not understanding the rules into the territory of "I don't think they should work that way."


Yes, you are right, it is. However, I see a difference between the rules, and new rules added in a FAQ. The original rules have, we all hope, been playtested and proven to work. But a rule added in response to a question, or series of questions, may not have ever been tried. It might simply be a reaction off the top of the developer's head, sort of what he thinks might work best, without thinking through all of the ramifications of the new addition.

So I see nothing wrong with questioning and analyzing the working of, and advisability of using new rules mentioned in a list of FAQ.
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Mark Kwasny
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Psysicist wrote:
You make some really good points Mark.

I can imagine some interesting situations that could arise. For example lets say your opponent has a Mighty Warrior of the Quay and a Shaping Cantrip in his ready area. You roll a Shaping Cantrip and a Mighty Warrior of the Quay. You summon the warrior. Your opponents warrior is destroyed. He uses the Shaping Cantrip to return the warrior to the ready area. This destroys your Warrior. You use your spell and return your warrior, destroying his warrior. This assumes that use of the shaping cantrip is considered 'summoning'.

And what about the Strong Primordial Ooze- if it copies a Mighty Warrior does it also immediately destroy the warrior?


Thanks. And I never thought of that sequence of destruction you describe above!

When I use Strong Primordial Ooze, I have always assumed that if it becomes a Mighty Warrior of the Quay, that yes, all other Warriors of the Quay are destroyed! The rules say to take on all of the aspects of the other Creature!
 
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Ken P

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mvkwasny wrote:

When I use Strong Primordial Ooze, I have always assumed that if it becomes a Mighty Warrior of the Quay, that yes, all other Warriors of the Quay are destroyed! The rules say to take on all of the aspects of the other Creature!


I'd probably play it that way as well - because it seems more fun!
 
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