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Subject: Why aren't iOS versions — well — "versions"? rss

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That's the question. Why aren't iOS (or Android) versions of boardgames listed among the versions you can have in your collection, or for which you can record a play. They're not just "video games" for sure: That's not why we buy them, and not how we play them. So why is the database organized otherwise?

EDIT: Added clarification (at least I hope it has that effect).
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Is http://dominion.isotropic.org in my collection? I play there a bunch (though still not as much as F2F).
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Scott A. Reed
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From a site organizational standpoint, iOS and electronic implementation items are Video Games. The site re-design should address some cross-site linkage issues that link the VGG items to BGG items. BGG guidelines restrict items on BGG to games that include at least boards and cards and prohibit electronic-only items. Just because one can play a electronic implementation of a board game at several different locations or in a variety of ways doesn't mean that those implementations should be treated as functionally equivalent to board games.
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skelebone wrote:
From a site organizational standpoint, iOS and electronic implementation items are Video Games. The site re-design should address some cross-site linkage issues that link the VGG items to BGG items. BGG guidelines restrict items on BGG to games that include at least boards and cards and prohibit electronic-only items. Just because I can play a electronic implementation of a board game at several different locations or in a variety of ways doesn't mean that those implementations should be treated as functionally equivalent to board games.


+1000. They "are" video games, by definition.
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skelebone wrote:
From a site organizational standpoint, iOS and electronic implementation items are Video Games.

So "because".

skelebone wrote:
Just because one can play a electronic implementation of a board game at several different locations or in a variety of ways doesn't mean that those implementations should be treated as functionally equivalent to board games.

Well; yes it does.

But as I've said before, I'm waiting for the "wood" domain, and the "plastic" domain to sort that out. No wait, I know, we can keep the paper games in a site called Qwgameikster and spin off a digital-implementations site and called it Netgames.

[Prediction: as trends continue to blur the digital/physical boundary for games, you guys are going to have a big database mess to clean up (or will get scooped by a site that handles it right).]
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MWChapel wrote:
They "are" video games, by definition.

Yes, that's my question: what's the logic behind the definition?
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Aldaron wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
They "are" video games, by definition.

Yes, that's my question: what's the logic behind the definition?


I think that was covered with:
Quote:
BGG guidelines restrict items on BGG to games that include at least boards and cards and prohibit electronic-only items.


Now, you can freely question why the guideline is the way it is, just as I can freely question why some things are on the left side of the page, and why threads run from top to bottom, rather than the other way around. But it all goes back to who hosts the website, what they want, how much customer consensus weighs on those decisions, and just what that consensus is.

I know, how about a poll?
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My definition:

Video game: A game in which all components required to play the game are software and electronic based, with no non-electronic components required to play.

Board game: A game in which at least some portion, if not the majority, of the required components to play are non-software and non-electric based.

iOS games require an iOS based electronic device, Android games require an Android based electronic device and both are self contained within their devices with all components being software based. Handheld electronic devices such as Merlin, Simon, Electronic Football, etc. are also included in my definition as video games as they are self contained electronic devices.

Games such as The Dark Tower and Electronic Detective have external physical components required to play the game that are not powered, thus are board games.

As much as your definition of board game would include the iOS version of Angry Birds to the BGG database because there is now a board game version, in my definition, it is total inappropriate.

I appreciate your desire, and am driven myself, to catalog everything that I have related to gaming in all of it's forms, but I do believe that blurring the line at this point would be a bit premature. I could see an added check box to the board game side of the database which would indicate ownership in the VGG database, thus allowing for tracking, but I do feel that they should still remain separate.

A question for thought:

Do you consider someone who has downloaded Keldon's Race for the Galaxy AI as owning the board game and all of its expansions?

Regardless of your beliefs, as they are no less valid than mine are, the site does still belong to Aldie and Derk and this still does come down to their call ultimately, so an answer of "Because" has to suffice for now.
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Guys, I appreciate your love for authority and definitions, but that's not my question.

The question is simply about the reasoning behind the definitions, given their consequences. Specifically: sticking to them too rigidly means that we don't have the simple convenience of treating software implementations of games as versions (wherever they reside or however they're categorized).
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Aldaron wrote:
The question is simply about the reasoning behind the definitions, given their consequences. Specifically: sticking to them too rigidly means that we don't have the simple convenience of treating software implementations of games as versions (wherever they reside or however they're categorized).


Where you see simple convenience, I see the unbridled complexity of trying to list and account for versions of an item in a database that was not designed to list or track them. Even a quick facial comparison of the forms of information tracked on a BGG version versus an VGG version shows that there is no means on the BGG side to track platform (which is of primary concern when talking about an implementation and it's compatibility with a person's software and collection), media (also a substantial concern), or any other information that would be specifically germane to a video game that is of no concern to a board game.

If you would like to track your collection of video game implementations of board games in your own BGG collection, customization tools in the collection view give you freedom to re-name your collection items and list a whole passel of personal information about them. If this is very important to you, the tools to do this with your own information are there to do it for yourself, but any notions of hybridizing entry information for the entire database just because a video game is an implementation of an existing board game does not take into account any of the reasons why there would be separate databases for board game and video games.
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skelebone wrote:
Where you see simple convenience, I see the unbridled complexity ...

So: implementation issue.
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Re: Why aren't iOS versions - well - "versions"?
Aldaron wrote:
That's the question. Why aren't iOS (or Android) versions of boardgames listed among the versions you can have in your collection, or for which you can record a play. They're not "video games" for sure: That's not why we buy them, and not how we play them. So who is the database organized otherwise?

Let me answer this with a question:

Why aren't boardgames based on videogames (think of DOOM or Gears of War, and many others) also versions of their appropriate videogame counterparts?

- Because they're boardgames, not videogames.

Boardgames are hardware (physical components), whereas videogames are purely digital software (not taking into account the media they're stored on, which are merely storage devices for the actual game!).

So a boardgame implementation of a videogame, or a videogame implementation of a boardgame does not make either the same "form". A boardgame doesn't get digital by recreating elements of a videogame, and vice versa.

Versions of any thing are meant to be similar in their core, with only slight differences, like other languages, different components or updated with new rules. Their original form remains, in this case mostly cardboard, wood, paper, plastic (boardgames) vs digital data stored on cartridges, CD-ROMs, DVDs or only available as DLC.

I would agree with you on audiobooks VS. regular printed books - the core (story, letters, type, graphics, sometimes even layout) remains the same. But not in this case.
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These semantic games aren't helping your case much.
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Aldaron wrote:
These semantic games aren't helping your case much.


It sounds like the case is already closed.
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MWChapel wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
These semantic games aren't helping your case much.

It sounds like the case is already closed.

Looks like it. No one has offered a functionality-related reason. So far I just have a few of the obligatory appeals to authority, the usual IT explanation, and some OC definitional acrobatics.
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Aldaron wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
These semantic games aren't helping your case much.

It sounds like the case is already closed.

Looks like it. No one has offered a functionality-related reason. So far I just have a few of the obligatory appeals to authority, the usual IT explanation, and some OC definitional acrobatics.


Que Sera, Sera, what can you do?
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Aldaron wrote:
These semantic games aren't helping your case much.


Yeah, but you aren't answering the questions either. How do you decide what is a board game, and what isn't? Is Civilization? Is Rollercoaster Tycoon? Is Sim City?

I think adding in all the video versions of board games would cause a ton of grief and arguments, add complexity, and ultimately - achieve nothing other than diluting the site.
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TomVasel wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
These semantic games aren't helping your case much.


Yeah, but you aren't answering the questions either. How do you decide what is a board game, and what isn't? Is Civilization? Is Rollercoaster Tycoon? Is Sim City?

I think adding in all the video versions of board games would cause a ton of grief and arguments, add complexity, and ultimately - achieve nothing other than diluting the site.

Again, way over thinking. Do you really have a problem recognizing that the iOS version of Carcassonne is a version of Carcassone. Surely not, so link it (wherever it is) as a version, from the Carcassone here.
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I don't know, there are numerous "versions" of games, which represent another window dressing of the same ruleset. I can see where an iOS version of a game that follows the same rules, uses similar artwork and is published in conjunction with the publisher is another 'version" of the game.

I don't think the complexity issue has much merit, it's simply adding another tag or whatever to the main entry of the game in question.

Is it controversial...sure, but so are a bevy of mundane things on this site (what exactly is a wargame?)

I don't think video only implementations of games like Civ deserve a seperate entry and game id, but a link to related material or "version" seems appropriate, as long as there is a clear line of recognition from board to screen.

but ask me tomorrow and I'll probably tell you the opposite.
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the issue is not limited to iOS products and BoardGames
in other threads I have suggested a new section on the game pages

called .... Related Links, or something similar


if you are on VGG looking at Reiner Knizia's Ra
you could have a link to the BGG entry Ra
or the reverse

there are entries on all three domains that could or should be linked

there are also some products listed on both BGG and RPGG, RPGG and VGG Merge List

I hybrid Item was tried, it didn't work
ID 60087 is a hybrid entry House Kurita: The Draconis Combine
see the different views from BGG and RPGG

various entries on all three domains have links in the More Information section to other entries on the Geek

I think a formal links section would address many issues and problems

currently developer time is being devoted to the redesign, any new features will have to wait

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nothing is stopping you from adding your digital games to your collection or recording your digital plays. in fact many people record their digital plays. if you want to note your digital games you can use the 'custom version' option to specify it is a digital version.

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(putting tongue in cheek) Seems like an entrepreneurial opportunity. Find an unemployed programmer and go nuts. You'll be the biggest game site in no time. ninja
 
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rrodrick wrote:
(putting tongue in cheek) Seems like an entrepreneurial opportunity. Find an unemployed programmer and go nuts. You'll be the biggest game site in no time. :ninja:


Over time BGG has grown so large that it would take a team of programmers. It is well beyond a one man effort now. BGG is developing in small evolutionary steps. The new RPG site and VGG sites have different database structures to fix some of the problems in current BGG database. Over time more commonality will no doubt result.

Part of the problem with any new development is to migrate data in current BGG database to a new structure. Take a simple addition of noting game contents. You'd have to spin through all 50k+ games to create contents game by game.

Let's be honest. the idea of a video game database was launched without an appreciation of exactly how the current BGG database and the video database would interact. If they had waited until all the details had been considered, there never would have been a video game site launch. There are other seemingly obvious problems. For example, there should be galleries of images by version. There also should have been a contents listing. (Who has a 5.25 inch floppy these days?)

There has been a talk of of book database too. So Geekdom is a work in progress...
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A related discussion here: Add ownership type 'electronic'
 
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It makes sense to me for there to be a single www.gamegeek.com that seamlessly integrates BGG, RPGG, and VGG. But it's pretty clear that it would be a significant effort to get there, and no doubt there would be a lot of outcry over it (a la GeekDo). It would probably need to be user-filterable so that those interested in only one domain can hide the others.
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