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Subject: Changes to WoTR in the Revised edition rss

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Pierce Ostrander
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Summary changes in the Revised edition

Based on an interview with Roberto DiMeglio that appears here: http://www.warofthering.eu/interview.htm

Components

At the moment we are releasing it in English only. We hope to have all major languages available in spring 2012. We are quite sure about German, Spanish, and Italian. We hope to find a French partner as well, but at the moment there isn't one.

The Board will be 32”x40” and will use the Collector’s Edition Art. The map is redrawn to accomodate for more units in the heavily used regions. But all regions have borders with the same regions as before so the gameplay doesn't change due to the redrawn map.

CE-sized cards revised with changes

Gollum figure will be included

There will not be different colors for the different nations

Rules and Card Changes

We will make the 2nd edition rules completely downloadable. Just be patient for a few more days and you'll have them, as soon as our website is up.

The changes were to tone down the more "extreme" strategies, and to limit some "gamey" mechanics, such as the so-called "turn stalling".

Changes include:
d10-1the setup of the Free Peoples,
d10-2the abilities of Gandalf the Grey and the Witch-king, Hunt mechanics, the Hobbits, Gollum...
d10-3and changes a few less-than-useful or too complex Event cards.
d10-4Plus, we streamlined a few odd rules here and there, such as the way control or original ownership of a settlement relates to other rules.

The Expansion

The rules changes made in the 2nd edition make it incompatible with the "Twilight" part of the existing War of the Ring: Battles of the Third Age expansion. Ares Games plans to publish a revised 2nd edition expansion. The 2nd edition expansion will not include the "Battles of the Third Age" part of the 1st edition expansion.

Upgrade Kit

Will include a card box, protectors, and cards for a Suggested Retail Price of US$29.90.

Note that there will also be a product that includes ONLY the Card Sleeves and the Box (no cards) for those who wish mearly to protect the orginal cards that came with the Collector's edition and do not want the new revised cards.

Both "upgrade" products are up for preorder (as is the 2nd edition Game) at many of the better online retailers (Coolstuffinc has all three listed on their site).

Scenarios

There will be no scenarios in the box. The "Breaking of the Fellowship" scenario that I designed a few years ago will be made available as a free download.
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Ernest S
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fubar awol wrote:
There will not be different colors for the different nations
Wait... What!? I thought difficulty distinguishing between nations was one of the key issues that people had with the base game & why the re-print was so looked forward too.

I guess maybe it was just me. Everything else sounds just great, though.
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Patesi LIMAC
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Great infomation, man!

"There will not be different colors for the different nations "

But I am a little sad for the colors of the nations...
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Shane Larsen
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fubar awol wrote:
There will not be different colors for the different nations


Boo. shake
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Pierce Ostrander
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Different Colors for Different Nations

Roberto's complete response:

"Unfortunately not. This is the only wish we could not make true. Different colors would bring the Suggested Retail Price of the game over US$100, and we don't think it was the right thing to do. The game is playable nonetheless, and there are hundreds of ways to paint the figures or the bases in different colors that would cost less to our customers than if we had done that."

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jeff
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thedacker wrote:
fubar awol wrote:
There will not be different colors for the different nations


Boo. shake


Agreed.

And this is why they will not be getting my $$ for this one. An update to the figures would have definatly made me open my pocket.

Changes to the size of the cards and the rules does not get my money.

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Pierce Ostrander
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D6Frog wrote:
fubar awol wrote:

Will include a card box, protectors, and cards for a Suggested Retail Price of US$29.90.

Does the card box and protectors come in the Revised Game?


I seriously doubt it. That question was not asked in the interview, but I think the answer is obvious: No.
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Jeff Thompson
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Upgrade Kit!!!!

Wuhoo!
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Kyle Meighan
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So it is official. My beautiful collector's edition rulebook is now no longer the official or most updated rules.

I don't see the "upgrade kit" including a nicely bound updated rules book for the collector's edition.

It is now just nicely bound junk. Glad I paid for it. shake

(edit: and I forgot to mention that despite spending a ton of money on the CE, I now have to spend another $29.95 to have the updated cards. Not an expansion set, which wouold be acceptable, but for revised cards. And I still have a junk rule book.)

-One Wolf
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Leo Zappa
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I will almost certainly get the upgrade kit. As for the colors of the pieces for the new edition - I agree that different colors would have been better and it's a shame that they felt the cost adder would have been a problem (I'm not sure I agree, but I will respect their decision). However, it doesn't take much effort (or money) to paint them in different basic colors...

I did this with spray paint from Walmart and it only took a few hours...

Made the game much more playable!
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Roberto Di Meglio
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I am sorry that some people feel negative about the unpainted figures. Painted figures are a nice "prop" to the game, but we made a lot of effort to make figures recognizable.

I should also remind that for 99% of the purposes there is no difference between how a Dwarf or an Elf works in the game (except if one is At War and the other one is not), so it' definitely NOT the big issue somebody made of it. I think that while spending $ 110 on a single game may be not an issue for somebody, I am sure that it is for many more people.

Regarding the CE... I don't think it's fair to ask that the game does not evolve, so that all the CE components remain forever the "latest version".
We designed the CE more than three years ago, and even the CE rules generated some questions and doubts. I wonder if we should have serviced the gaming audience better if we would not improve the rules if we could?
In any case, the rule changes can be summarized (and we will) in two pages or less, and the cards are available for separate purchase. When we decided to make the cards available in this way, we had the CE owners in our mind, and when we discarded

Everybody who owns a CE will be able to still use it exactly as before, just by adding a reference sheet and the new deck of cards, and will play exactly the same as the 2nd Edition (except for the painted figures and larger board, of course!).
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fubar awol wrote:
Roberto's complete response:

"[...] there are hundreds of ways to paint the figures or the bases in different colors that would cost less to our customers than if we had done that."

desertfox2004 wrote:
I did this with spray paint from Walmart and it only took a few hours...


This kind of arguing reminds me of this comic somehow.

Well, what the heck, I guess painting (or spraying) 205 minis doesn't really count as work, even though it would be my first time.

I'll still get it as soon as it's released in German

Edit: Typo, and...

I forgot to say a big THANK YOU for making this game available again! I've been wanting this for quite a long time, so again thank you very much
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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cybernex wrote:
Regarding the CE... I don't think it's fair to ask that the game does not evolve, so that all the CE components remain forever the "latest version".
We designed the CE more than three years ago, and even the CE rules generated some questions and doubts. I wonder if we should have serviced the gaming audience better if we would not improve the rules if we could?

I'm a CE owner, and I absolutely agree with this. The game comes first, and if improvements were needed, you did the right thing.


cybernex wrote:

In any case, the rule changes can be summarized (and we will) in two pages or less, and the cards are available for separate purchase. When we decided to make the cards available in this way, we had the CE owners in our mind

That is much appreciated - thank you, Roberto.
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cybernex wrote:
I am sorry that some people feel negative about the unpainted figures. Painted figures are a nice "prop" to the game, but we made a lot of effort to make figures recognizable.


I don't think people are complaining that they're "unpainted", so much as the fact that they're not simply different color plastics.

Sorry all, this was probably the easiest thing to predict that was NOT going to happen. Plastic production 101. The blue figures almost all certainly come from the same mold (or two), as well as the red, and gray. It would have been totally impossible to split them up into nation specific color divisions like this
or this
from molds that generated color sets like this
without literally making all new molds, which is FAR from cheap (as it was said, would have pushed to game cost over 100 dollars).

It seems the biggest complainers here that are stating that this is the "deal breaker" *already* own the game and were just looking for a new one with different color plastic. Speaking for myself, as someone that doesn't own the game and would simply just like to buy a copy at a reasonable price, I'd much rather buy the game for 30-50 dollars cheaper and buy a few of bottles of paint and spend an afternoon even just painting the bases to tell them apart. Tens of Thousands of games of WOTR have been played just fine with the figs just the way they were/are - it doesn't break the game, and it (shouldn't) break your desire to purchase it unless you already have it anyway - and, if not, well, sorry but don't let the game store door hit you in the ass while you storm out over something essentially pretty trivial.
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Eric Flood
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It's rather too bad that 3D printing hasn't made it yet viable to do this without worrying about base color. I was going to pick up the new edition, now I might even hold off on the upgrade kit until the expansion is re-released (I needs my Ents!), or a good way of incorporating both card sizes is determined.

Ah well, still good to see the game becoming available again!
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Jay Lacson
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I'm a little behind on the second printing news...but, is it just going to be the "standard edition" that's going to be reprinted?

or will there be a CE reprinting as well?
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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Only the basic version.
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Pierce Ostrander
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One_Wolf wrote:
So it is official. My beautiful collector's edition rulebook is now no longer the official or most updated rules.

It is now just nicely bound junk. Glad I paid for it. shake


We have a solution for this in the Advanced Squad Leader world... it is called "sticky eratta". Some uber-fan matches the font and graphics of the rulebook perfectly and then puts up a pdf that you print onto sticky-back printer paper. Cut and Paste. Wallah! Updated rulebook.

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One_Wolf wrote:
So it is official. My beautiful collector's edition rulebook is now no longer the official or most updated rules.


The SA tower at Carn Dum, or rather the 1VP the FP get for capturing it, is as meaningless in the basic game as it is in the CE, and as it will be in the revised edition. The reason why is that none of those involved, at any of these stages, had the moral courage to admit this long-running situation was what might politely be described as a deeply obvious [and untested] failure. Now we have the situation where the Revised edition map won't be changed because this would represent acknowledgement that the CE, that amazing production, had its inherent screw-ups, which cannot be put to one side as easily as the expansion. There is one consolation however: now its no longer possible to say that the tower at Far Harad was not subject to playtest. One gets the impression there are issues here more important than your dollars.

More obviousness is that Rohirrim go in Rohan, Men of Gondor in that place, forces of The North on the other side of the board, and so on: why do they need to be different colours? There is a legend about American difficulties with political geography, but if you genuinely don't know where the strongholds of the Dwarves and Elves are, how can you play the game at all? Once units are on the board, their provenance is somewhat unimportant and anyway 90% of them never quit their walls, never mind their national boundaries.
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Ernest S
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midnightmadness wrote:
cybernex wrote:
I am sorry that some people feel negative about the unpainted figures. Painted figures are a nice "prop" to the game, but we made a lot of effort to make figures recognizable.
It seems the biggest complainers here that are stating that this is the "deal breaker" *already* own the game and were just looking for a new one with different color plastic.
I certainly don't feel like I've got anything to complain about, since I already own the game... and love it. I also fit the mold of one who would have considered buying a new copy if the nations were different plastics, however now I won't... though I certainly will look at the "upgrade kit".

midnightmadness wrote:
...over something essentially pretty trivial.
Totally agree with this. True, different colors would be cool but it doesn't affect my game play and I love the fact that this gem is being reprinted with upgrades and at a reasonable price point so those who don't have the game can now get it.

Still, I was a little surprised; it seems like many of the posts (since the announcement was made) led me to believe colors was likely. I must have taken peoples (my?) desires & made the jump in my mind to it being a likely decision.

However, the cost arguments for "NOT coloring" makes total sense to me.
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John McKendrick
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All games evolve ... sorry ...... (rewind)

All 'live' games evolve, including chess for instance. The fact that some might expect perfection in any edition of wotr is puzzling to me.

And I am a so called 'proud' owner of the CE

-John

ps the fact that Mr Daglish always seem to present himself as being more knowledgeable than anyone else about wotr is also puzzling, perhaps he could enlighten me? No insult intended .... I'm genuinely interested
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I'm probably overreacting. I tend to do that. But what I am seeing from the interviews and the online polls was that a handful of people felt rules should be changed because they are "gaming" the system or it was imbalanced. While many felt the game was good as is.

Indeed the latest interview noted that leaving it as is was a viable option.

Therefore rules changes were certainly not "needed."

With all due respect saying the "upgrade kit" had CE owners in mind hurts even more. Maybe the other 1999 owners of the CE had $400 or more to spare just sitting around waiting. I did not. I saved specifically for this, and had to give up other fun things in my life in order to afford it. So to say, oh but for just another $29.95 you can be just the same, hurts a little.

It would be one thing if this were an expansion. Games expand, I get that, but instead this is a revision of the game. If you really had CE owners in mind there should be 2000 prints of an "upgrade kit" that would be sent for free with proof of ownership (say a copy of the Certificate of Authenticity) 1 per owner.

But I am not going to fool myself. This will never happen, nor would I expect it to, as companies need to make money. Which is what this is all about anyway.

As I said, I am certain I am overreacting, and will most likely calm down and embrace everything given time. I'm just expressing my feelings. Right now I feel like I bought a numbered print of an original piece of art, but the artist decided to change the original, so now I own a numbered print of another numbered print and have to change it.

For the first time since I bought the CE I am starting to regret it. I guess that's what this is all about. Buyer's remorse. I have thoroughly enjoyed my CE so far, but now I feel that maybe I would have been better off using my old version until this one came out. Painted minis are nice, but even the designer says he wouldn't prefer the CE over the 2nd edition.

Oh well.

-One Wolf
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One_Wolf wrote:
But I am not going to fool myself. This will never happen, nor would I expect it to, as companies need to make money. Which is what this is all about anyway.


Nexus went out of business. Aparently, they didn't make enough money to stay afloat. I don't object to paying for this sort of thing... It takes a lot of time (and money) to perfect the wording - do the layout, proof-read etc. and those things are DWARFED by the time it would take to administrate distribution. Imagine a company trying to receive, track and send free upgrades to 2 thousand customers.

Not something I'd do for free.
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John McKendrick
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OK maybe I am restating what I said before but here goes anyway

I regard the CE as my 'Gold Standard' version of the game. Like a chess set ... of which I have several, my Egyptian version is the most precious but not my favourite of my many sets of chess.

Now wotr CE, I have a beautiful wooden box, painted miniatures (How I would love to be one of those talented enough to paint better than this) and a Big Map. It is also playable in that form. btw ... did I mention that I prefer Knightmare Chess to standard? Anyway I digress

I'm delighted that wotr is popular enough to warrant continued attention (I'm an Earth Reborn fan you seemodest) and long may it continue, I'm even buying fan made Strongholds to 'pimp' my game

So what gives with those unsatisfied? I'm at a loss

-John
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One_Wolf wrote:
I'm probably overreacting. I tend to do that. But what I am seeing from the interviews and the online polls was that a handful of people felt rules should be changed because they are "gaming" the system or it was imbalanced. While many felt the game was good as is.

Indeed the latest interview noted that leaving it as is was a viable option.

Therefore rules changes were certainly not "needed."

With all due respect saying the "upgrade kit" had CE owners in mind hurts even more. Maybe the other 1999 owners of the CE had $400 or more to spare just sitting around waiting. I did not. I saved specifically for this, and had to give up other fun things in my life in order to afford it. So to say, oh but for just another $29.95 you can be just the same, hurts a little.

It would be one thing if this were an expansion. Games expand, I get that, but instead this is a revision of the game. If you really had CE owners in mind there should be 2000 prints of an "upgrade kit" that would be sent for free with proof of ownership (say a copy of the Certificate of Authenticity) 1 per owner.

But I am not going to fool myself. This will never happen, nor would I expect it to, as companies need to make money. Which is what this is all about anyway.

As I said, I am certain I am overreacting, and will most likely calm down and embrace everything given time. I'm just expressing my feelings. Right now I feel like I bought a numbered print of an original piece of art, but the artist decided to change the original, so now I own a numbered print of another numbered print and have to change it.

For the first time since I bought the CE I am starting to regret it. I guess that's what this is all about. Buyer's remorse. I have thoroughly enjoyed my CE so far, but now I feel that maybe I would have been better off using my old version until this one came out. Painted minis are nice, but even the designer says he wouldn't prefer the CE over the 2nd edition.

Oh well.

-One Wolf


you're not alone One Wolf...i am also a CE owner and feel cheated.

i can remember, "don't worry we will not publish another CE" => of course, now they can because they are modifying things that should have been done in the CE edition.

as you say..Oh well

next year they will publish the Ultimate CE but never to be reprinted, oh sorry they can reprint because they will publish version 3 of the rules/cards/figures/etc.

zombie

EDIT : the worst thing is that i also have the standard edition + expansion.
Really don't like that news with this Revised Edition (nearly a copy of the CE one).



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