Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Field Commander: Napoleon» Forums » Rules

Subject: question about sweep and routed enemy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle
France
flag msg tools
mb
Hello,

After a "sweep" insight, cavalery units are remove from the battle map. Are the combat values of these cavalery unit used to calculate if the enemy is routed ? Or we have to use only combat values of units staying on the battle map ?

thanks for your answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Haeberling
Switzerland
CH-8570 Weinfelden
TG
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Count only units staying on the Battle Map.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rod Bauer
United States
Larned
Kansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
habchr wrote:
Count only units staying on the Battle Map.

That sounds a little self-defeating. I continue to count them as they are still in the same "area" or region of the map. When I fist move into a region and have a 3-1 superiority I don't bother to move "any" of the units to the battle map. So when I am in a battle and use the "Sweep insight" I still count those factors after they have completed the sweep.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Haeberling
Switzerland
CH-8570 Weinfelden
TG
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I understand you perfectly. But as the 3 to 1 ratio is only counted for units on the battlefield and the Sweep Cavalry is not I have IMHO no reason to count them in.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rod Bauer
United States
Larned
Kansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You may vey well be correct Christoph in your interpretation of the rules as they are written. I am interpreting it more as to what I think the "spirit" of the rules should be. Let me explain: I think our disagreement comes on what we call the "battlefield". I am not talking about the battlefield "Board", but the "battle area" in general. On page 9 of the rules under ENVELOPMENT CHECK, the example shows the 3 to 1 ratio being counted before the units are put on the "battle sheet". In other words when they are simply on the area or region where the battle will occur. It then states that "If there is no Envelopment, move all Forces from the map's Battle Area to the Battlefield Sheet." So it seems to me that the 3 to 1 ratio is for all units in the AREA. Any Sweeping cavalry units are still in that area after they conduct the sweep, so I believe that they should still be counted for the 3 to 1 ratio. I realize that the ROUT rule on page 17 specifically states the you count the forces on the "Battle Sheet" to determine rout. So maybe ROUTS and EVELOPMENTS are two seperate ideas which would make you correct in the way you are playing it. I however think that to keep the "spirit" of the rules consistent, I will continue to play it the way I have been doing. If I am trying to rout the enemy I don't see a great value in sending, lets say two cavalry units worth 16 combat value points, into a possible sweep that might destroy maybe 5 or 6 combat values of enemy forces, while I essentialy would lose 16 strenth points. With any sweep I am almost certain to lose more strength on the "battlefield sheet" than any damage I can inflict on the Enemy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Galer
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think that the rules are written are a better model of the situation myself. Think of the Envelopment check before the battle as the defeated side seeing the overwhelming odds and just surrendering before the battle starts. Rout happens during a battle when things are going so badly the routed side panics and runs.

Cavalry sweeps are a one-shot gambit where you are sending the cavalry in to disrupt the enemy rear knowing that the cavalry is not going to take any further part in the battle. So if your goal is to rout, then the sweep may not be the best idea (until maybe the enemy is retreating and then you send in the cavalry sweep).

The cavalry sweep is not always going to be the right thing to do - but when the time is right it can be devastating (or frustrating when you dont score any hits...)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rod Bauer
United States
Larned
Kansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is an interesting idea Matthew, and I do see what you are saying. I do like the notion of using the sweep after a rout to eliminate retreating units. I don't know how practical this is however. You probably would not be able to use the cavalry in the battle at all, because you would have to keep them in reserve until the rout occured, and then hope you get a good roll for them in order to sweep (only a 25-30% chance in most cases). I have one more problem as to whether the written rule reflects reality or not. After a sweep, when the cavalry has been hacking to peices enemy units on the battlefield itself, they then ride off in the distance from the battle field just to sit and watch? . . too far away to be able to be factored in to the 3 to 1 rout calculation? I don't see that as reflecting the reality of this action.

I noticed in your post that you say:
"So if your goal is to rout, then the sweep may not be the best idea."
I ask:
What is your goal during a battle, if not to rout the enemy and win the battle?

I do see the reality that if you try a sweep, the cavalry you use would be off on a wide sweep of one of the flanks in order to hit the enemy in the rear. Thus they would not be available for the normal battlefield action. So it makes sense to me, that if they are involved in a sweep, they are no longer availble to be used in the rest of the tactical actions in the battle. That would be a good reason fo them to be removed from the battle board so they can not be used in any other tactical (battle orders) actions. But I still think their presence should be reflected by including them in the 3 to 1 rout calculation.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arturo Siles
Spain
Barcelona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Remenber that you can remove 1-3 cavalry units (not zero) and if your forces would be routed afterwards is a timely risk. In some cases you will find the sweep left some cavalry units in the area but the rest of the forces retreat to an adjacent area... always with Napoleon. You must start a battle again with cavalry without Napoleon,probably a defeat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arnauld DELLA SIEGA
France
FRANCE
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
Rout Check :
Total the combat values on the battlefield sheet.> So, you don't have to count them in the Rout check. They are not in the battle any more.


But what happens if you use the sweep, so put your cavalry in the battle area of the campaign map and you loose this battle ? Do the cavalry unit retreat or a new battle is triggered or ... ?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Godfrey Bailey
Malta
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
arsior wrote:
Remenber that you can remove 1-3 cavalry units (not zero) and if your forces would be routed afterwards is a timely risk. In some cases you will find the sweep left some cavalry units in the area but the rest of the forces retreat to an adjacent area... always with Napoleon. You must start a battle again with cavalry without Napoleon,probably a defeat.


Well I think Arturo has got it right. There are many cases during the English Civil War where a wing of the Royalist cavalry would cause mayhem in some part of the Parliamentarian line but then gallop off into the distance never to return, with the Royalist Army ending up defeated. Also true the sweeping cavalry could be left behind and attacked but not necessarily a "probable defeat" because without Napoleon they can always voluntarily retreat off the battlefield.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.