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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: rules of play rss

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sean dolbee
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Well 70 post in and I went back to read the rules in the A3R rule book and what the heck I decoded to start from page one.

"Advanced Third Reich clarifies many rules which gave rise to questions from players over the years.
In addition,important changes have been made to many rules, although the overall structure of the game is unchanged"

And the bottom right hand corner of the page

"Questions"
"If rule disputes do arise, players will find that they often can be resolved by a careful reading of the rules and common sense"

There you go no more "RAW" we can use common sense..
So rule 13.11 A major power selecting an offensive option for a front must either make at least one ground combat attack or conduct at least one offensive air or navel mission against enemy forces on that front. This requirement is met even if enemy forces intercept and prevent the mission from being completed."

So again can France take an Offensive option in the Med against a neutral Italy.

No

There are no enemy forces Italy is not at war.

I was looking at shore bomb and Eastern Europe and A3R clears those up as well.
 
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Doug Poskitt
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Forgive me if I've got this wrong Sean, but is the import of your post to mean that when in doubt in 3R4, turn to A3R and see what is what there ... and then base one's decision on the rules to another game (in this case, a family relative)?
 
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john bailey
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Back in the day, if we couldn't agree on a rule, we cut cards.

 
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sean dolbee
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Exactly Doug that's what I'm proposing.
It's oblivious that the designer is not going to chime in on any of or post to help. So I started to read the A3R rules and on the first page it talks about 3R being around for 15 years and in that time there were a lot of questions on the rules probably not unlike what were going through. So that's where A3R comes in it says that even though the rules book is bigger there really aren't a lot of new rules but they have used more examples with the old rules to help players understand the rules.

One of the rule cahnges is "Shore bombardment" there was a post on BGG about away to attack Malta with a 1-3 that would result in the defenders being eliminated and almost no loss to the attacker so they changed the Rule in fact the rule is almost exactly as the one you proposed. Where you can't have more the 3 times the Shore Bombardment factors of the attaking force.

They also clear up East Europe each section has It's own BRPs and they change Poland is no longer a British Minor in fact they list all the possible minors for all the Major power's.

Another rule that is cleared up is attacking 2 units from the same hex the old wording used "adjacent" which some thought ment the defenders had to be adjacent to each other. The new rule uses "next to" and gives an example of attacking north east and South west of the attackers hex.

So yes that's what I'm proposing.

I feel as if we have a baby dropped off at our doorstep and now we have to figure out how to take care of it.

I don't have the time right now but in a day or so I can go down the list of rule questions and post what A3R has to say.
 
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john bailey
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Were 3R and A3R developed by the same individuals? Or just the same company? There are a lot of differences between these two games that might lead some to believe they had different motivations.

One is a "bookcase game" with 560 counters. The other is a step toward Europa. I mean, just look at the turn sequence: http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/2ahlsx1v92/Sequ...

Seriously.
Quote:
12. Unit Construction phase (19).

a. Play of Axis variants 4, 14, 15, 21, 22; Allied variants 12,
13, 15, 21, 22; Allied variants 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 20.
b. Placement of new units (19).
c. Deduct 25 BRPs to open Persian route for BRP grants (38).
d. Voluntary destruction of BRPs (19.4)


So what is the big deal here? BRPs can be thrown away in any manner we choose. In 3R, some believe we can do a "fake" DoW or a "Sitzkreig" Offensive Option. In A3R they formalize a rule to allow the expenditure. in a different section. Either way France can spend the BRPs to avoid getting their clocks cleaned by Germany in a W'39/Sp'40 double move...

I understand A3R has those sexy new counters for hex control and supply; but it is a different game on many levels. Don't be seduced by the dark side..


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sean dolbee
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"Don't be seduced by the dark side" John you crack me up! Lol..I still read some of your posts on the game we have saved...funny!

Ok Yes you can Burn BRPs in A3R up to your spending limit and if playing the game you can figure that in but with 3R as the Axis you figure with the rules in that game you have a chance for a FF,small chance but a chance and you setup accordingly. With France taking an OO in the Med there is no chance.

A3R is an Avalon hill game.

Quoted from ultra Spring 1992

"Few games have commanded so loyal a following for so many years as Third Reich. The game has it's own extensive literature,and a hard core of players with strongly held opinions about every aspect of the game.(Boy isn't that us!)

The General V28 n6

First impressions of Advanced Third Reich by Larry Bucher

This is an account of and some observations on my first efforts with Advanced Third Reich's Barbarossa Scenario. My "name recognition"among Third Reich players notwithstanding,it should be regarded as a beginners effort. I had not actually pushed counters around a 3R4 board for years,but the new package was irresistible. The play described herein is solitaire,which has it's drawbacks but at least guarantees equal level of incompetence--of which there is plenty, as the reader will discover.
Wishing to concentrate on getting comfortable with the advanced version, I used no variants but did decide to use the optional turn initiative rule.
[A3R is the completely revised and redesigned update of our popular Third Reich game designed by John Prados oan originally published back in the seventies. A commentary provided by A3R's designer/publisher Bruce Harper,is presented in bracketed italics throughout the text.Ed.]

The First Attempt

German setup doctrine would seem to pose no great setup problems:just concentrate air and armor as near the center of the front as the rules allow(I.e. South of Poland and Slovakia) to obtain maximum attack flexibility. Factor limitations in Hungary and Rumania, as well as the need to deploy Hungary's own forces,force the center of gravity a bit farther north the optimum.
The only real rule problem I encounter was the deployment of the Italians; do they or do they not count against the 10-factor limit in Rumania(or Hungary)? Neither 51.2,56.61, nor the diplomatic tables are conclusive. By the scenario rules,which specify a limit of 10 German factors,you can add the Italians. But,by the same reasoning,you could start all the italians in Finland! Anyhow,pending a ruling,I decided that the Italians in Rumania and Hungary would count against the factor limits there. [They do.BH]
The only other rule difficulty that I had was a matter of convincing myself that a rule meant what it said. Can you stage an air unit and,simultaneously,recycle it's underlying airbase counter to it's new location?[Yes.BH]After repeated re-readings of 26.1, the answer turns out to be that Yes, you sure can,once a turn. There is no prohibition,26.121's "at any time" gives broad latitude,and 26.16's wording is the clincher. It's a radical change for a 3R-forth-edition mind to incorporate,but in practice you need only remember that the enemy is likely to have five air factors coming at you from any supplied hex he controls.

There's only a couple pages to this article so if you want to read the rest let me know I have to post from my phone my computer is down should be fixed in a day or so.

 
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sean dolbee
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One of the questions that has been brought up is that in A3R you can voluntarily burn BRPs to avoid a flip-flop ,Yes you can Burn them but hang on that does not unsure the stopping of a Flip-flop. What? How so, quoted from the General V28 n6 p20 "in 3R4 a margin of just 1 BRP could be counted on,but in A3R even a 15 BRP margin is not safe from a German Raiders. The Raiders may sortie in the strategic warfare phase of the turn,after Allied unit construction.

44.51 Once all combat between Raidrrs and intercepting Allied fleets has been resolved ,the Allies lose one BRP for each raider factor in the SW box.



 
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Steve Carter
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dolbee123 wrote:
One of the questions that has been brought up is that in A3R you can voluntarily burn BRPs to avoid a flip-flop ,Yes you can Burn them but hang on that does not unsure the stopping of a Flip-flop. What? How so, quoted from the General V28 n6 p20 "in 3R4 a margin of just 1 BRP could be counted on,but in A3R even a 15 BRP margin is not safe from a German Raiders. The Raiders may sortie in the strategic warfare phase of the turn,after Allied unit construction.

44.51 Once all combat between Raidrrs and intercepting Allied fleets has been resolved ,the Allies lose one BRP for each raider factor in the SW box.

Sean, I am not familiar with A3R, but it sounds like a different game, with extra chrome. It seems to me that the "list" of rules issues (posted in another thread elsewhere in the forum) will remain something that needs to be negotiated between players. But it would be interesting to see what A3R has to say about the issues in the list.
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sean dolbee
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I had posted a brief description of some of the rules Shore Bombardment,East Europe Ect,I can do a more in depth account when I get my laptop back. It's just to tough from my phone.

And I do agree that any of the rules should be agreed upon before hand. But the only thing is whether or not the rules agreed up on are going to effect the game. In other words the game was playtested and the rules were written to unsure the flow of the game.
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john bailey
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Is there actually an "accepted" A3R ruleset somewhere online, like the PDFs of 3R4.5, etc?

(Edit: BTW, I knew there was a different design/development team on A3R and I'm not a fan of JP3R's twisted map and confusing color schemes. Call me a Luddite; but original 3R's v2 Map is a giant.)

JP3R Map example: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1073387/polate?size=origi...
 
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sean dolbee
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I don't know if there is and I don't have a scanner that can save them as a PDF. I have went to kinko's to make PDF copy's of "Flat Top" and "Victory in the Pacific" but they wouldn't do it due to copy write.
I'm playing Vitp for the first time and find the game quite exciting.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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It is an interesting idea to use the 'successor' (in a sense) game (i.e. Advanced 3R) in the 'series' in order to help provide 'clarifications' for ambiguous rules in the 4th edition. However, it is a distinctly different game in many regards, and thus no 'answers' can be found there, only potentially some 'clues'.

There does appear to be a 'rules rewrite' file posted on the Advanced 3R entry on this site. It is claimed to be a faithful recreation of the 'official' rules, incorporating post publication Q&A rulings etc. Assuming that is true, it appears some interesting decisions were made with regard to some of the questions that have been debated here for the 4th edition.

> Exploitation from a vacant beach hex is possible, even with an adjacent enemy unit. However, I note that it is only possible from a vacant beach hex. The ability to 'attack' and exploit from any vacant enemy controlled hex has been dropped.

> Shore bombarding naval factors are limited, so as to only be able to provide 1 SB factor for every 3 ground factors. However, I note that SB naval factors are no longer immune from elimination in combat!

> As has been noted, BRP's can be voluntarily 'burned', and thus issues around questionable DoW's or Offensive options are rendered largely moot. As a side issue, sea transport can be conducted during an Attrition option via use of what is called a "Limited Offensive".

There are a great many interesting ideas incorporated in A3R. However, as there are some fundamental changes to the system itself, one has to be careful on how one applies certain A3R rules in attempting to resolve 4th edition rules disputes.
 
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