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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Helo and Sleep Deprivation problem rss

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Felix Dark
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During my game session, Helo drew the 'Sleep Deprivation' Crisis card during his first turn. If your not sure which card that is, the card says, "Admiral chooses; Return all undamaged vipers back to reserves and send the current player to sickbay OR lose a morale". Since he was the admiral he choose option A; return vipers.

The problem is that he is not suppose to be on the board for a full turn, but yet we let him be in sickbay. His this the right way or this could have been done differently?
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Nathan Bergom
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"Sometimes it would be nice to be wrong about people." -Commander Samuel Vimes
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Helo should not have gone to Sickbay. Until his second turn rolls around, he's still on Caprica, so immune to being sent to Sickbay. True, he can still make Admiral decisions, but it's just one of those quirks we've come to know and tolerate.
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nbergom wrote:
Helo should not have gone to Sickbay. Until his second turn rolls around, he's still on Caprica, so immune to being sent to Sickbay. True, he can still make Admiral decisions, but it's just one of those quirks we've come to know and tolerate.
If a cylon on Caprica can throw in a skill card to spike a skill check that's thematically happening well within the Colonial Fleet, then there shouldn't be any "thematic issues" to Helo making decisions from Caprica.
 
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Cristiano Batista
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Porto Alegre
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I know this is a rule of thumb, but, I never pick options that turn a disadvantage into an advantage. Helo's disadvantage is one of the lightest in the game, and his advantage is one of the best. In this case, I would adjudicate that in the impossibility of putting the current player in the brig, than the other option shall be applied. (Lose 1 Morale).

I know this is harsh, but I would feel like cheating by exploring a possible rule interpretation in players favor.
 
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cristiano.batista wrote:
I know this is a rule of thumb, but, I never pick options that turn a disadvantage into an advantage. Helo's disadvantage is one of the lightest in the game, and his advantage is one of the best. In this case, I would adjudicate that in the impossibility of putting the current player in the brig, than the other option shall be applied. (Lose 1 Morale).

I know this is harsh, but I would feel like cheating by exploring a possible rule interpretation in players favor.



"Meh".... It's also been annoying when he's human too.... E.g. the game starts off with several CAC (Cylon Attack Cards) in a close succession. Helo being Stranded means he can't help at all with cylon ships, except maybe play an EM or SP.
 
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Piper Jackson
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Unless it specifically says otherwise, you can always choose an option that doesn't end up hurting you. So choosing the first option in this case is okay. However, Helo cannot be placed on the board at all until his second turn, so he will remain off the board (not going to Sickbay) even if the first option is chosen. This definitely makes the first option a better choice in this case, but this is a legal play. It is similar to choosing an option that requires you to discard 5 cards when your hand is already empty (which is legal unless otherwise specified). Making that choice is actually a sign of good BSG play.
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Piper Jackson wrote:
Unless it specifically says otherwise, you can always choose an option that doesn't end up hurting you. So choosing the first option in this case is okay. However, Helo cannot be placed on the board at all until his second turn, so he will remain off the board (not going to Sickbay) even if the first option is chosen. This definitely makes the first option a better choice in this case, but this is a legal play. It is similar to choosing an option that requires you to discard 5 cards when your hand is already empty (which is legal unless otherwise specified). Making that choice is actually a sign of good BSG play.
I believe the comment made by cristiano.batista was just a house rule that they use, not necessarily the actual rules.
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Roberta Yang
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cristiano.batista wrote:
I know this is harsh, but I would feel like cheating by exploring a possible rule interpretation in players favor.

It's not a "possible rules interpretation"; it's two of the basic rules of the game:

1) Any choice can be made when offered, even if that choice cannot be fully carried out. (The exception, Build Cylon Detector, explicitly states that it is an exception.)

2) Helo cannot be moved while he's off the board. That's right on his character card.

This isn't some weird possible interpretation of the rules we've managed to weasel up; these are the normal rules as they are written and as they always apply to the game, so acting like they're just one possible interpretation (i.e. that your house rule is not in fact a house rule) is rather disingenuous.

Besides, suppose Helo were on the board, but no Vipers were in space. Would you argue that the Viper-returning effect could not be fulfilled and thus that option could not be chosen? What if the current player were a Cylon using Caprica? Would the first option be illegal due to the impossibility of sending the Cylon to sickbay? What if I draw Build Cylon Detector when the Admiral is out of both nukes and cards? Do we sit there staring at two illegal options for five minutes, then pack up the game and play Mansions of Madness instead?
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Roberta Yang
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Just to clarify, I'm not against house rules at all - the most vanilla of games that my group plays still involves adding Pegasus's rule for immediately handing off extra Loyalty cards to the base game to avoid screwing over double-Cylons, and we more commonly play with Pegasus plus several elements of Razor Cut or Exodus with large changes to the Ionian Nebula and a revised Personal Goal system more reminiscent of the Cylon Leader agendas.

What I'm against is presenting a house rule as if it were an official rule of the game in a topic in the Rules forum asking what the official rules of the game are. The option can be legally chosen and Helo will simply remain off the board. That's not one possible interpretation of the rules. That's not a point of ambiguity in the ruleset. That's not fan convention, that's not just the way my group plays, and that's not something we just made up out of nowhere. That's how the game works under FFG's rules, and presenting playing this way as akin to cheating in favour of an uncommon house rule while presenting said house rule as no less official is just not fair.

The other thing I'm against is house rules in which people haven't properly thought out the implications of their changes. For example, in our base game change, we're slightly nerfing Baltar and Boomer's weaknesses (since as the most common double-Cylons they will be the most affected) and making the Resurrection Ship action pretty much never worth taking (and so Super Crises will never be discarded and re-drawn) - and we're fine with that. Sure, we should probably come up with an alternate Resurrection Ship, or just use Pegasus's version, but it's not a major issue. We've looked at our rule's effect on the game and it looks okay.

I don't see evidence that the "make unfulfillable options illegal" rule has been thought out. It leads to awkward questions like the above. Is returning all zero vipers in space a satisfactory fulfillment of "return all Vipers"? Can the options on Declare Martial Law and Request Resignation be selected that cause an Admiral-President to give his second title to himself? What happens on impossible choices, like Build Cylon Detector with no nukes and no Admiral Skill Cards, or a Destination choice of two Remote Planets when all the Raptors are gone? Is Roslin allowed to choose a Cylon Attack Crisis that tries to spawn more Cylon ships than component limitations will allow, or whose effect to damage Vipers in reserves will hit only blanks? But outside of rules ambiguities, it will also alter the way the game is played. Raptors are now more valuable because once they're gone, all "and destroy 1 Raptor" effects cannot be chosen. The President, who may normally want to shed their hand quickly in order to pass Shortages with fewer discards, is now encouraged to do the opposite and hoard cards jealously so that, when Shortages do come up, they are able to discard to avoid losing Food. Likewise, the Admiral should always keep a few cards in hand for discarding on effects, which in turn makes Saul Tigh's weakness far less interesting. On the other hand, having an Admiral-President is now a bad thing, as they are likely to run out of Skill Cards quickly and then be forced to make bad choices on subsequent Crises.

Some of this may sound good to you, and some of it may sound bad - I like at least the effect it has on discouraging martial law, since there needed to be some drawback to Admiral-Presidents, but I doubt anyone likes the idea of the Build Cylon Detector paradox. But regardless of whether you like or dislike these effects, Cristiano Batista doesn't give any indication of having considered them - and implementing a house rule without such a consideration of its effects is unwise.
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Christopher Watkins
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If viewing the whole picture than this is really not that important.

Roberta Yang went on a wild rant that isn't really even affecting the final play out of the game.

I challenge you all to stack this as the first card on the deck in all your helo games and track wins vs. losses. i doubt there will be an imbalance.
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