Recommend
20 
 Thumb up
 Hide
127 Posts
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] | 

A Few Acres of Snow» Forums » Variants

Subject: Seriously considered options rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mike Clarke
Canada
Port Coquitlam
B.C.
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
I think the discussion Andrew and I had was that Andrew was trying to make the tooled up British deck have other options, and I was floating the possibility (there is nothing I am definitely sold on, I'm trying out discussions on options to understand them better - though I have preferences) of reducing the tooling up after a large siege (while leaving small sieges unchanged - and yes, I realise that has an arbitrary definition issue). We disagree on what is cause and what is symptom. It is an area I really want Martin's historical view on large standing armies and how long they could be maintained for when not in active combat.

Getting consensus is often messy but for what it's worth I think you've got a really good handle on the problem. It looks to me like you're taking the right stuff to Essen for Martin to consider. And as he's just said, he's reading this stuff too.

I'm sure you guys will be able to fix it. It's such a great little game and I think all we want, is to see it go back to what we had when we first starting playing it.

Thanks for taking this on.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marco Fregoso

La Spezia
Italy
msg tools
Black Metal Geek
badge
NO FUN - NO CORE - NO TRENDS - NO MOSH
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
Agzaroth wrote:
both failed ambushes and failed raids are free actions.


9a and 15a.

Quote:
if then you want to balance military and settlements:
- you can't have (draw deck+discart pile) more empire cards than location cards


Doesn't help. Or doesn't help enough, as the standard degenerate strategy does not violate this. At least until a siege ends. And then what do you do? And keeping count is messy at best.


i agree for the 2nd point: keeping count could be messy (but not so much: only 4 dices: 2 (tens and units) for empire and 2 for locations. and i think everyone has 4 dices...)

then, more specifically: i meant the total amount of your Empire cards (it means: draw deck + discard pile + sieges + reserve) can't be more than Locations (again: draw+discard+sieges+reserve)

so you can't buy a new Empire card if you don't respect this limit.



however, forgetting this: 9a+15a have a positive aspect: they strongly fortify the French strategy keeping him able to Settle (and win by points) while doing raids/ambushes against the British.

as French, now, you can't settle+fortify+defend from siege+raid+ambush....while the Engligh just is only sieging!

this is the point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Smith
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Don Smith wrote:
Under #1 you might add "Start with a Fort in Quebec". This is an obvious additional deterrent to the thin deck military approach.

Under #6, a recent proposal, which might have significant effect but is simple to implement, is that Drafting cards must be the FINAL action of a turn (whether drafting one or two) including Free actions like Home Support. So it would be expressly prohibited to draft an Empire card and then Home Support it into your hand.

Under #6 as well, what about Home Support being a regular action (not free). Drawing three cards is still a powerful thing (but not overpowering).


All reasonable suggestions. There is a danger of option list expansion if every possible suggested option is added, though these are sub-options. I'm not going to add them now for two reasons, the more important one being the need for sleep. I'll think about adding some or all of these tomorrow (actually, later today for me). Comments in favour of adding or thumbs to Don's posting will bias in favour of adding them.


Don only got one thumb, so I used my judgement. The second of these I thought was in all ways inferior to HS first, and I didn't see any other support so omitted it. The other two, at least one (probably both) of which has been mentioned previously, are now added.

That will probably be the last addition to the list before Essen. Though never say never.



Christopher,

Thanks for considering any of the musings from my scrambled brain! I have more faith than some that you, Martin and the Treefrog team will come up with something which re-catapults this brilliant design back to the "must have" game it should be.

Based on the discussions in the other thread on how the "broken" strategy plays out if the French know it is coming, one outcome among good players is a quagmire where both sides have nothing but a handful of locations and lots of military cards in their decks. Sieges become the only strategy for the British and the French have no time but to respond generating what money they can and adding military. In this quagmire scenario, most of the pundits feel that a British victory by taking Quebec is just a matter of time - they might be right - but the key thing is that this makes the game extraordinarily narrow, scripted and dull. Personally, I think with expert play, the quagmire scenario is quite likely and that after the British take Louisbourg both the French and British hands will be similar.

Here's my post-cutoff suggestion: To deter only the most determined and precise British player from trying the "broken" strategy the following are suggested:

1. Start with Louisbourg fortified. The rationale for this is well documented and really allows the French some time to get their house in order against the obvious degenerate strategy once the British settle Halifax and put Pemaquid and St. Mary's in the Reserve.

2. The second change is the new wrinkle. Quebec may only be besieged ONCE. If the British succeed - they win. If they fail - they lose. I've tried to think of some thematic rationale and it could go something like: "Well, General Wolfe, we gave you everything you requested including the kitchen sink and you failed to take Quebec - the Empire has better things to do - let the French keep their Few Acres of Snow...

Seriously, what this second rule does is further inhibit the "all military" strategy for the British. As several posters have noted, because of the way the cards play out, particularly post-Louisbourg, it is not a sure thing that the first British siege of Quebec will succeed. What the "broken strategy advocates" say is that Quebec will EVENTUALLY fall. They, again, might be right.

To pursue a thin deck all-military strategy in the face of these two rules would be a far more risky venture and should deter all but the zealots from trying to win this way with the British.

Keep up the good work and all the best with the post-publication enhancement of this fine game.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hell of a suggestion Don. Kudos.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Clarke
Canada
Port Coquitlam
B.C.
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Christopher for what it's worth, here's my little pre-Essen contribution following our most recent playtest. (I posted some of this in another thread just now, but I'm going to put it here too for ease of access).

Two games played (after trying out other early tweaks like Louisbourg starts fortified and Home Support only a first action).
Since then, we've had varying degrees of success using:

1) Delayed Draft
2) French have two first turns
3) Home Support as a first action only
4) French start with Fortification instead of Bateaux

We haven't played it enough to determine whether that's a fix, but it IS a much better game right off the bat. The one thing we were debating was monkeying with Ambush to either make it a free action or to be able to recover the action for a couple of coins and see if that wasn't the final bit of unpredictability (taking Regulars out of the British hand) it took to dissuade British siege as the only winning tactic in the game.

However, I also like options that a) return military following a siege or restrict military buildup in some other way (perhaps by tying development to military might).

The main effect of the delayed draft is to avoid military coming straight into the British hand from the draft and being invulnerable to ambush. Home Support tweak stops the British double merchant action. The main reason we're looking at Ambush is to have some chance of picking off the military now that they have to hit the British hand.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don Smith wrote:
Sieges become the only strategy for the British


I'm not convinced this is true. Start a siege, get it to where it's used up your military and then go elsewhere.

Quote:
2. The second change is the new wrinkle. Quebec may only be besieged ONCE. If the British succeed - they win. If they fail - they lose.


The purpose of this thread is collecting options, rather than my commenting on them. But I will come off the fence and say I really, really don't like that idea.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Dilloo
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
badge
The Ginger Ninja
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don, like the thinking. I used to think there was a need for a fix, but now I am pretty much convinced that there doesn't need to be. If the French buy Fort, Home Support, and CdB, on turns 2,3,and 4; they can cycle through fast enough to fortify Louisbourg and then Quebec. Home Support, trader, and if needed, merchanting, or taking money to cycle faster. I think that the French can stuff the British at Louisbourg most of the time.

Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!

Edit: Siege via Louisbourg and they would still need a ship to get there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hans-Joachim Becks
Germany
flag msg tools
mb
Dearlove wrote:


7. Modify the operation of the reserve:
a. Location cards cannot be put into the reserve.
b. [No other firm proposal, but the previous case is not the only possibility.]



7. b. could be: While any location card is in reserve you cannot place a cube in a neutral location and cannot draft its location card, neither as a result of the settling action nor as a result of a won siege.

This will prevent placing location cards in reserve just to get them out of the way. The British player could not even settle Halifax.

The option of placing a location card in reserve because you want to use its economic value later would remain intact. For example the French player could reserve Quebec to use its settler symbol when he gets a suitable location card in his hand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Piso wrote:
7. b. could be


Unfortunately it's easy to come up with 7b examples (and the other similar cases) but none that I've noticed have yet reached more than a proposal with no significant (or no) support. Particularly none that are clean, simple and effective.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Smith
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
Don Smith wrote:
Sieges become the only strategy for the British


I'm not convinced this is true. Start a siege, get it to where it's used up your military and then go elsewhere.

Quote:
2. The second change is the new wrinkle. Quebec may only be besieged ONCE. If the British succeed - they win. If they fail - they lose.


The purpose of this thread is collecting options, rather than my commenting on them. But I will come off the fence and say I really, really don't like that idea.


Christopher,

I am groping to find a solution which ONLY deters the "thin-deck right from the get-go" strategy without messing with other game mechanics. Maybe saying that the British can only attack from Louisbourg to Quebec ONCE might work as well.

These are all quite "artificial" changes but I'm quite convinced that IF the British do not Reserve Pemaquid and St. Mary's on their first couple of actions then the game will be back "on the rails".

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Smith
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigloo33 wrote:
Don, like the thinking. I used to think there was a need for a fix, but now I am pretty much convinced that there doesn't need to be. If the French buy Fort, Home Support, and CdB, on turns 2,3,and 4; they can cycle through fast enough to fortify Louisbourg and then Quebec. Home Support, trader, and if needed, merchanting, or taking money to cycle faster. I think that the French can stuff the British at Louisbourg most of the time.

Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!

Edit: Siege via Louisbourg and they would still need a ship to get there.


Howdy Ken,

I agree that the French counterplay can be effective.

The key thing for me is to reduce the chance of a British win using the "thin deck from the get-go" approach down to less than 50%. Otherwise, you get a dull scripted game. Once we are all convinced that there is a BETTER chance of the British to win by NOT doing that then we can move on.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hans-Joachim Becks
Germany
flag msg tools
mb
Dearlove wrote:
Piso wrote:
7. b. could be


Unfortunately it's easy to come up with 7b examples (and the other similar cases) but none that I've noticed have yet reached more than a proposal with no significant (or no) support. Particularly none that are clean, simple and effective.


Are you suggesting that proposals should be made elsewhere?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Dilloo
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
badge
The Ginger Ninja
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don Smith wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
Don, like the thinking. I used to think there was a need for a fix, but now I am pretty much convinced that there doesn't need to be. If the French buy Fort, Home Support, and CdB, on turns 2,3,and 4; they can cycle through fast enough to fortify Louisbourg and then Quebec. Home Support, trader, and if needed, merchanting, or taking money to cycle faster. I think that the French can stuff the British at Louisbourg most of the time.

Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!

Edit: Siege via Louisbourg and they would still need a ship to get there.


Howdy Ken,

I agree that the French counterplay can be effective.

The key thing for me is to reduce the chance of a British win using the "thin deck from the get-go" approach down to less than 50%. Otherwise, you get a dull scripted game. Once we are all convinced that there is a BETTER chance of the British to win by NOT doing that then we can move on.


Don, I totally agree. I posted some session reports, and a strategy post, that I think offers a great counter-script to the thin-deck strategy. I don't think this thin deck is really all that scary, at all. The balance is there, and I don't think there needs to be a fix, although I very much used to.

If someone can outline a very detailed "Thin-Deck" script, I can sure test that against mine.

Script-War sauron
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Piso wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Piso wrote:
7. b. could be


Unfortunately it's easy to come up with 7b examples (and the other similar cases) but none that I've noticed have yet reached more than a proposal with no significant (or no) support. Particularly none that are clean, simple and effective.


Are you suggesting that proposals should be made elsewhere?


Where they are made is not what matters. And people can suggest anything of course. The point is that proposals are easy (I've made some that didn't even make my list, as well as at least a couple that did) and trying to list everything anyone has ever proposed is not sensible. For the list I've put together (everyone is free to make their own list) I've made some choices. I'm off to Essen, so probably won't update it before then (though I have once since I first said that) but if I were updating it I'd be looking not for proposals, but proposals with support (and ideally testing).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigloo33 wrote:
Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!
How so? You need to siege, win and settle Pemaquid first. Oh you mean you you want to make this a variant? Er...

Anyway, I'd love to play you over VASSAL sometime just to see how you propose defending Louisborg.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
flag msg tools
The Geek? Yes, it's a good site. But - ah! You should have seen it before the rebranding! It was legible and a joy to read! All gone now, sadly, and so (mostly) am I because of it ...
badge
I'm sorry, I cannot read this site regularly while the intense white background is in effect. I have eye health issues, and this is painful. I'll still make brief visits, largely for trades and rules questions, but my socializing here is done for now
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
7. Modify the operation of the reserve:
a. Location cards cannot be put into the reserve.

This seems the cleanest, easiest tweak to me, and one that even makes sense in the definition of the word "reserve".

Question: would this effectively dismantle the Halifax Hammer? If so, I would put this suggestion at the top.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, you just buy Governor, get rid of crap locations, then put the Gov in reserve.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff Speare
United States
Bedford
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
tee hee, that tickles!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
True, but would the extra time required be enough to give France an edge? It does sound from recent conversations like time is of the essence.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Dilloo
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
badge
The Ginger Ninja
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!
How so? You need to siege, win and settle Pemaquid first. Oh you mean you you want to make this a variant? Er...

Anyway, I'd love to play you over VASSAL sometime just to see how you propose defending Louisborg.


But all of my analysis is wrong. Besides, I am getting the impression you like getting beat by Andrew.

You do the hokie pokie, and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew E
United States
flag msg tools
mbmb
bigloo33 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
Anyway, along with your thought, I had the idea that if the British did, in fact, fail at Louisbourg, the French would get a one-time siege opportunity at New York or Boston. How fun would that be? Talk about deterrent!!
How so? You need to siege, win and settle Pemaquid first. Oh you mean you you want to make this a variant? Er...

Anyway, I'd love to play you over VASSAL sometime just to see how you propose defending Louisborg.


But all of my analysis is wrong. Besides, I am getting the impression you like getting beat by Andrew.

Of course all your analysis is wrong. One needs only observe your actions to discover that even you don't believe your analysis. If you really believed in your analysis, you wouldn't be wasting your time writing sarcastic replies, you'd have taken Clyde up on his offer, shown your analysis workable against somebody widely known to understand and advocate the existence of the problem, revolutionized the metagame of AFAoS, enjoyed mountains of e-fame for saving this potentially awesome game, and had plenty of time afterwards for writing sarcastic and insulting replies at me and anybody else you like emphasizing how you were right and we were wrong and you proved it.

If you don't believe your analysis, why should anybody else give it half a thought?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Dilloo
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
badge
The Ginger Ninja
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree. No one should give it half a thought.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chuck Parrott
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If time for the French were the issue, then starting with Louisburg fortified should solve the problem. I'm not saying it does or doesn't, but according to those who have tested it, it doesn't.

Just a surface analysis though, LB + fort starts at 4 defense. British thins to HS + 4 cards, Halifax + ship + NY + Boston. Money to minimum of 20. Turn before siege, buy SA + RI. Next turn, HS SA and RI to hand then begin siege with 5 to 4.

This does give the French some breathing room, maybe 2 turns minimum, possibly more. But what do they do with the extra time? Either expand and let LB fall eventually or money/military themselves for the defense of LB. In either case, they are playing with borrowed time and will at some point have to military/fortify Quebec or lose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Smith
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sos1 wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
7. Modify the operation of the reserve:
a. Location cards cannot be put into the reserve.

This seems the cleanest, easiest tweak to me, and one that even makes sense in the definition of the word "reserve".

Question: would this effectively dismantle the Halifax Hammer? If so, I would put this suggestion at the top.


Steffan,

I think this would work, although, as a minimalist, I would suggest that only Pemaquid and St. Mary's (or perhaps any of the original British 7 location cards) be prohibited from the Reserve as this is the key to the Blitz/HS/Halifax Hammer thing. Although this sounds artificial - it eliminates much of the zip of the British "thin deck" approach.

The reason I would NOT suggest a global restriction on placing a location card in Reserve is that it is often useful to Reserve a location in order to later fortify, expand from or initiate a siege from there.

Although I was attempting to lighten up the discussion with my "Honour and Shame" thread, I do actually think that restricting ONLY St. Mary's and Pemaquid from the British Reserve would take A LOT of the steam out of the current British "optimal" strategy. Add a Fort in Louisbourg and/or Quebec at game start and the game is back on the rails.

For those who think that the British response would be just to Governor out those two locations, well, that is no longer much of a blitz, but I'm willing to be convinced that these simple changes are not enough.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really dislike any fix that involves specific cards working differently from other cards of the same type ("You may reserve all locations cards except St. Mary's and Pemaquid"...huh?).

Ideally we'll have one rule change that is easy to remember, intuitive, minimal, and historic/thematic.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hans-Joachim Becks
Germany
flag msg tools
mb
I like the idea that putting location cards into reserve is restricted but still allowed. I do not mind if certain location cards can be reserved and others not. Of course, this is not the cleanest solution, but clean solutions tend to be radical (and to have side effects). If you do not like to name specific location cards that can not be reserved, it might do to say that location cards that are part of the initial deck can not be put there. (Don said "perhaps" to this option - probably because he thinks it goes to far when regarding the goal of Halifax Hammer prevention.)

One might extend this rule to the governor card, so it can not be used in a (slowed down) Halifax Hammer.

By the way: What about the other idea I posted several days ago, that you can put in reserve any location card you want but then loose (temporarily) the option of settling neutral or conquered locations? I know I did not get any support for it, but why exactly?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] |