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Chaos in the Old World: The Horned Rat Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Havoc - Unresolved Rule Details rss

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Joel Schuster
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Unfortunately, the FAQ did not clarify whether there is a printing error on player sheets or not, regarding the phases to trigger a dial advancement condition. And there neither was an entry on Havoc. Nurgles and Khornes conditions are explicit, it allows this per PHASE, while Tzeentchs and Slaaneshs do not state that.

There was an entry in the latest FAQ regarding Blue Scribes, so at least that is clarified. No mention of Havoc, which does not only affect Tzeentch but also others.

Take Slaanesh for example. Does he earn a DAC when there is Havoc in a region with a noble/hero while having a single cultist and warrior each ?

Now common interpretation is that if Khorne and Nurgles dial condition may be matched per phase, the same should apply for Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Which would actually limit Slaaneshs abilities by the above example (1 corruption in each phase). Add his upgrade Fall from Grace to the equation. He wants to take it to increase his means for DAC collection and aim on a dial win.

If you place three or more corruption tokens in a region with a Noble or Hero token, collect two dial advancement counters instead of only one.

With only 6 cultists, you are looking at additional options to drop corruption. DaemonicSubtlety is clear, it says demon and warriors also drop 1 corruption each in CORRUPTION PHASE. But then Havoc lets you drop corruption INSTEAD of rolling dice, in BATTLE PHASE. Now Havoc is not such an uncommonly used card. Its a game winner no less.

And especially with the Fall from Grace upgrade, a single corruption triggering another DAC or not may make your further dial advancement preceed and make you the winner of a game.

One interpretation says you may gain another DAC in battle phase, even though not mentioned explicitely on your player sheet. The other would make you more versatile of earning your single DAC (or 2 by the upgrade) more savely, over the stretch of several phases.

Its even a strategic decision. Lets assume you hold the Fall from Grace Upgrade and have 2 cultists each in 3 different regions with nobles/heroes. One of these gets Havoc added. In order to maximize possible DACs you will want to have your warriors added and cultists relocated to different spots now, depending on your rule interpretation.

If you read the cards and sheets in front of you and take them at face value, you'll want to add a warrior to the Havoc region, in order to place 3 corruption there, all in all and gain 2 DACs by your upgrade. However, that doesnt comply with what is otherwise assumed to be common sense to have the PER PHASE apply to all players. But there is no official word.

If it is per phase, you'd want to have 3 cultists and then 3 more warriors/demon present of possible, to generate a total of 4 DACs out of the single region. Is that valid and possible ?

Since there is no mention that the PER PHASE is a misprint and the upgrade does not adress this point either, I am inclined to go with a ruling that disregards phases for Slaanesh. Means that you cannot get 2 DACs out of one region by cultists and then also by Havoced warriors/demons. Means that you gain a DAC though by a single cultist and a single Havoced warrior. Meaning you get 2 by the upgrade and any 2+1 combination.

That would also mean that if Tzeentch fulfills his condition in some region by Blue Scribes, he cannot gain another DAC from that region this turn. (The FAQ entry does neither contradict nor address that). Would also mean he could only relocate a single corruption and gain a DAC by adding at least one more later on.

I hope anybody is with me. Its a detail, but a detail that may decide the outcome of a game nonetheless. Since the points discussed are not adressed in the FAQ, I guess you have to assume they are intended as (differently) printed.
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Warren Denning
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Didn't ColtsFan comment that each god was supposed to be "Place a DAC whenever you do X per region per phase"?

I can't find the thread he posted that in, but given that he is a play tester I think I would default to that. I believe the only reason each god's card was not printed this way is because in the base game each god was far less likely to place corruption outside of the Corruption Phase.

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Joel Schuster
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I agree. This is what I labelled as the common recent consent regarding the player sheets information regarding DACs and phases. However, the above examples led me to think otherwise now, thats why I posted the situation in some detail.

After all, if the FAQ does not mention a specific issue (they would not add a "hey, thats no misprint there"), it does not exist and you should take the facts as given.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Q: When Tzeentch plays "The Blue Scribes" Chaos card and moves corruption tokens from that region to a region with two Warpstone/magic symbols, does Tzeentch gain a dial advancement counter?

A: Yes, but Tzeentch only receives a dial advancement counter when moving his own corruption tokens to a region with two Warpstone/magic symbols. If Tzeentch moves two corruption tokens belonging to another player to a region that would fulfill that player’s dial advancement condition, that player does not earn a dial advancement counter.


Also, look at the entry on Blue Scribes. It makes absolutely clear that you may earn a DAC through it. However, there is not the slightest indication on whether you may collect another one in this region during another (corruption) phase.

So, all in all, there is no indication at all that Tzeentch and Slaanesh may collect DACs in the same region in different phases.
 
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Joel Schuster
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This is the other thread where Brian says its per phase by the way.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/694701/in-the-same-phase-dia...
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Warren Denning
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I think it was a oversight, but possibly avoided in the FAQ because they might have thought that it would cause a lot of issues.

I suspect that an unfortunate side-effect of the well-constructed base game is its hard to expand without creating a lot of conflicts. It might be addressed in a future expansion when they figure out how to re-word the gods and the implications of that wording.

More to the point, if Slannesh or Tzeentch can gain more DACs per round I think it allows better competition with Khorn. Since even 20 DACs generally leads to only two dial ticks, its not really a concern.
 
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Joel Schuster
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I am not sure one ruling over the other is an advantage. They both have an advantage and a disadvantage, as I pointed out with the lengthy examply above.

If you can get a DAC in several phases, it might be good. In some situation this might actually result in getting FEWER DACs though.

You have a cultist and a havoced warrior in some region. You place a corruption in each phase -> NO DAC.

You'd actually gain a DAC if you take Slaaneshs player sheet face value and disregard the phases.

The same applies when you add the Fall from Grace upgrade to the equation. You get an additional DAC or you dont. This may apply to several regions and has quite an impact on the positioning of your units.

I am not talking this solely in theory just for the sake of it. In both current PBEMs I am playing this might be of an issue, in one most likely. There is currently Havoc, there is Fall from Grace, there is even Call to Arms event up, which reduces the corruption placed in corruption phase by one for each player in each region. There are Slaanesh warriors and cultists all over the place, some also with DeamonicSubtlety. The question of ruling may well decide who wins.
 
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brian
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I always played it per phase and this was my understanding under the original team that worked on Chaos. With Horned Rat, it is a different team - they may have a different answer. I have asked them to review this previously and I can send them a reminder on it.
 
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Warren Denning
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ColtsFan, I know you have no control over what FFG does, but I think this is one issue that if you can poke along that would be great.

I get asked/challenged about it all the time when I teach people the game. I also think as expansions are added its going to become more and more important as the example above does point out.
 
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brian
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Actually, I thought this was a separate issue so I haven't submitted it as a question previously. I can do that now though.

So the question is to confirm if multiple DAC's can be placed in the same region by the same god as long as they are different phases, correct?

The question that was open in my mind was tangentially related - in order to qualify for a DAC that requires 2 corruption, must you place both of your corruption at the same time.
 
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Warren Denning
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Yeah basically should Tzeentch and Slannesh have "...in the same phase." added to their DAC rules which makes them the same as Khorn and Nurgle.
 
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Joel Schuster
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
So the question is to confirm if multiple DAC's can be placed in the same region by the same god as long as they are different phases, correct?


Practically, yes. Maybe you can add a little context to it, because to my experience, the context is quite important when deciding how to handle a rule. There have been odd clarifications before and some have been revised later on when put to some (other) context. (In CITOW: Like the OW token choices by events). So it would not hurt to add the above example.

If you leave Slaanesh and Tzeentch as is by their sheets, it means that they may collect additional DACs in different phases. On the other hand, they may not combine their corruption placement of different phases to also get some DACs more easily. Havoc and BlueScribes are of main concern here, maybe also mention DaemonicSubtlety and Fall from Grace. Thank you.

 
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Joel Schuster
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Its definately a disadvantage right now for me in one ongoing game if you add the per phase to Slaanesh. I have 2 cultists each in regions with nobles/heroes. One of these has Havoc and also warrior of mine. I'll do 2nd place with just one cultist and the warrior. It'd be an advantage for me if I could move away one cultist to another place. But if its per PHASE I will not get my save DAC there. Other DACs are threatened by combat dice.

Just adding this to emphasize that per region is not better per se. Its just different preliminaries.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Fellow players informed me that the core of the issue is probably still not really perceived in this thread.

Another simple example to show that the PER PHASE addition may actually not be as useful to Slaanesh in particular than it seems at first glance.

Assume Slaanesh has 2 cultists dropping corruption in a noble/hero region. There is Havoc and there is a Slaanesh warrior. He holds the Fall from Grace upgrade.

If Slaanesh is ALLOWED to collect a DAC per PHASE in this region, this actually prevents him from getting 2 by Fall from Grace, which reads

If you place three or more corruption tokens in a region with a Noble or Hero token, collect two dial advancement counters instead of only one.

So, it would serve him better here if the phase is to be disregarded as his player sheet says. Also the upgrade description doesnt mention any relation to phases.
 
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Warren Denning
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I think DACs gain from upgrades or Chaos Card are different from the standard DAC condition on the god's player sheet.

In your example, Fall From Grace is triggered by the standard 1 DAC from two cultists dropping corruption in the Corruption Phase, but completed for the 2 DAC bonus by having a Warrior drop a corruption in the Battle Phase.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Hmm, interesting thought.

But on the other hand, with FallFromGrace I think you should be able to gain 4 DACs out of a single region by 3 cultists and 3 havoced warriors/demons, if you go by PER PHASE.

And after all, the upgrade is not triggered by placing 2 corruption. It is triggered by placing 3.

So I dont think you can separate this upgrade from the general rule to either go by turn or by phase.
 
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Warren Denning
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The "per phase" question is only brought up because some gods' player sheets have this phrase while others do not. And now that corruption tokens can be added to a region beyond just the Corruption Phase for all gods, this difference is important.

BUT, I don't think DAC conditions on the player sheets affect any Chaos Card conditions such as Fall From Grace (FfG) unless it refers to how many DACs a player gains in a round.

FfG does not remark about the DACs gained, but how many corruption tokens where placed in the region.

I think the bit about "instead of one gain two" was the easiest way to phrase the card. Otherwise it might be better to say "If you obtain at least one DAC in this region, gain one more if you placed three or more corruption tokens in this region."

 
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