Recommend
36 
 Thumb up
 Hide
220 Posts
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [9] | 

Dominion: Hinterlands» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ironworks and Trader rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
I'd have said B. Trader "changes" the card to a silver before Ironworks sees it.
That was my thought until I read the card FAQ for Trader.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
NtN Scissors
Singapore
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
With the benefit of reading the Trader FAQ, I'm pretty confident in saying "It" must be interpreted to refer to the chosen card, but only if you actually gained it. Trader canceling the would-gain of the original chosen card is just like what would happen in the (preposterously unlikely) event that Ironworks had no legal targets to gain: It failed to gain the card it wanted to gain, so it gets no bonus.
So what happens in Ironworks + Possession? Due to the Possession, the Ironworks player doesn't actually gain the Great Hall either; do you also believe that the Ironworks here gets no bonuses? This must be decided independently of and without reference to the Trader card FAQ, because this combination was available before Hinterlands.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt E
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NtNScissors wrote:
So what happens in Ironworks + Possession? Due to the Possession, the Ironworks player doesn't actually gain the Great Hall either; do you also believe that the Ironworks here gets no bonuses? This must be decided independently of and without reference to the Trader card FAQ, because this combination was available before Hinterlands.
Hmm, that's a very good point, and it makes me lean more toward A.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NtNScissors wrote:
So what happens in Ironworks + Possession? Due to the Possession, the Ironworks player doesn't actually gain the Great Hall either; do you also believe that the Ironworks here gets no bonuses? This must be decided independently of and without reference to the Trader card FAQ, because this combination was available before Hinterlands.
In the normal Possession case, somebody did gain the chosen card, so "It" in the Ironworks card text still has its desired referent: the card that was chosen & gained (by someone). With Trader, the card was chosen but not gained (by anyone), which I have to conclude from the Trader FAQ deprives "It" of its desired referent.

Absent the specific wording present in the FAQ for Trader I would have concluded that the bonus is based on the actually-gained card. In fact, I did conclude that before reading the FAQ, as you might note on the previous page of this thread, where I also specifically addressed the Possession interaction.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let me say I think the Trader FAQ definitively rules out "B" but leaves a crack open for "A": There's a cromulent interpretation of Ironworks here that says its bonus is inexorably determined as soon as you choose which <$4 card to gain, and that the bonus is not contingent on actually gaining the card.

I do not think there is any further progress to be made in sorting out "A" vs. "C" short of an official ruling.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
That was my thought until I read the card FAQ for Trader.

I think people are over-applying the faq. All it says is that if something would have happened when gaining the original card, it doesn't happen since that original card was never gained. Ill Gotten Gains is changed to a silver by Trader, IGG was never gained, no curses were handed out. Completely logical, and the obvious ruling.

Note that it does *not* say that nothing happens when the silver is gained instead.

You've gained a silver, cards that do something when you gain a silver should fire. Cards that do something when gaining a Great Hall don't happen, since you didn't gain the Great Hall.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
You've gained a silver, cards that do something when you gain a silver should fire. Cards that do something when gaining a Great Hall don't happen, since you didn't gain the Great Hall.
Ah, but Ironworks does something when Ironworks makes you gain a card, not when Trader makes you gain a card. Either Ironworks is meant to give a bonus based on the card chosen for gaining, or it's meant to give a bonus based on Ironworks making somebody actually gain the chosen card.

Again, the root cause of the difficulty is that Ironworks implicitly assumes the chosen card is actually gained. The text doesn't admit the possibility that some other card (or nothing) will be gained instead.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
LastFootnote wrote:
If I play an Ironworks and choose to gain, say, a Great Hall, then I reveal a Trader from my hand and gain a Silver instead, which one of the following happens?

A. I get +1 Card/+1 Action from Ironworks.
B. I get +$1 from Ironworks.
C. I get no bonus from Ironworks.
I have to go with C. [actually I went with A, sry]

The whole question is what "it" refers to. For guidance let us look to Remodel and Upgrade. Remodel says "the trashed card." Upgrade says "it." But they both mean the same thing, and should work the same. If there were a card that stopped a card from being trashed, then Remodel would fail to gain you a card in that situation, and so Upgrade's "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it" should also fail there.

Ironworks seems the same. To me, "Gain a card costing up to $4" is really two steps, choosing a card and then gaining it; but that "it" must be shorthand for "the gained card," and if you didn't gain the card then you don't get anything.

And of course you get nothing for Trader's Silver, which Ironworks knows nothing about. Ironworks does not give you bonuses for cards you get other than via its ability, and Trader just nukes the original gain and adds a fresh "gain a Silver" (which comes from the supply and goes to your discard pile, regardless of what was going on with the card no longer being gained).

Edit: Okay I've changed my mind already, re-reading Upgrade. Anyone reading Upgrade is going to think that "it" means "the card" rather than somehow implying that the card was trashed. Upgrade and Remodel would work differently and there's no fixing that.

Ironworks says "Gain a card costing up to $4. If it..." "It" must mean "the card you picked."

I'm going with A, see if you can talk me out of it.

Edit: Okay I'm feeling happier about A already and you don't have to try to talk me out of it. It's too bad Upgrade and Remodel don't match but what can you do, it's nice to have shorter card wordings and "it" is one trap you fall into there. When I read Ironworks the "it" to me means "the card" without any implicit "if you do" on that gaining.

Edit: As you will see in a later post, in the end I went with C!
37 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
NtN Scissors
Singapore
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know about talking the game designer out of his rulings, but I do know I fully expect at least one card in the final expansions to stop player(s) from trashing card(s).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Donald!

I am glad to see I'm not the only one who couldn't easily decide between "A" and "C" from reading the card texts and FAQs
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt E
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
donaldx wrote:
I have to go with C. [actually I went with A, sry]
No apology necessary! Option A creates more interesting strategy, even if it only does so on a very small number of boards.

Thanks for the ruling!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vince Lupo
United States
ALEXANDRIA
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think ironworks gained great hall. So ironworks does it's bonus of selection A. Then you react to it with trader for a silver instead.


But I haven't read the FAQ item for trader. I'd like to know too because of situations like this, and timing and even something like tournament (choosing the duchy option and then reacting with trader to get silver instead, would the silver go on top of your deck and then get drawn by tournament?).


edit: oops he posted while I was typing.


edit 2: I like his ruling. Seems simpler too. What ironworks selected was great hall. That's what the bonus should be for. Now for tournament (I fixed my text above) I am thinking that your silver would go to your discard, the duchy would stay where it is on the supply, and you would draw a card from tournament (assuming nobody showed a province).


edit 3: fixed trash reference in my top paragraph
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
LastFootnote wrote:
donaldx wrote:
I have to go with C. [actually I went with A, sry]
No apology necessary! Option A creates more interesting strategy, even if it only does so on a very small number of boards.

Thanks for the ruling!
Thanks for the exciting question!

Here's how I would explain this now, which would make perfect sense and not make me look wishy-washy if only I hadn't been so quick to click submit.

If I say, "feed the blue dog, then take it for a walk," "it" refers to the blue dog, including its blueness, but "it" does not mean "the dog you fed." We are talking about a blue dog, and I am giving you two commands concerning it. Feed it, walk it.

So "it" on Ironworks means "the card," not "the card you gained." First gain the card, then do something based on its types.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Compulsive Completist
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
donaldx wrote:
We are talking about a blue dog, and I am giving you two commands concerning it. Feed it, walk it.

Done and done.
33 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Brendel
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Now looking forward to the eventual "When you would feed a blue dog" Reaction, and arguments thereon.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Neo42 wrote:
I think ironworks gained great hall. So ironworks does it's bonus of selection A. Then you react to it with trader and trash it for a silver instead.
Trader doesn't trash the Great Hall. Ironworks never gains it in the first place; the Great Hall never leaves the supply pile. No need to refer to the FAQ here.

With Tournament, it's the Trader making you gain the Silver, not the Tournament, so the Silver goes in the default location for gained cards (since Trader doesn't tell you to put it somewhere else): the discard pile. Note FWIW that the card FAQ specifically addresses the "what if the would-gain card was headed somewhere other than the discard?" issue, by telling you explicitly to put the gained Silver in the discard pile.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
donaldx wrote:
If I say, "feed the blue dog, then take it for a walk," "it" refers to the blue dog, including its blueness, but "it" does not mean "the dog you fed." We are talking about a blue dog, and I am giving you two commands concerning it. Feed it, walk it.

So "it" on Ironworks means "the card," not "the card you gained." First gain the card, then do something based on its types.

Ah, so if there happened to be a city ordinance in effect that read, "Any time you would feed a blue dog, you may feed a pink elephant instead," then I could go feed a pink elephant, but I would still have to walk the blue dog.

That makes perfect sense to me, because I'm stoned out of my mind.
32 
 Thumb up
2.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Latto
United States
Foxboro
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
donaldx wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
If I play an Ironworks and choose to gain, say, a Great Hall, then I reveal a Trader from my hand and gain a Silver instead, which one of the following happens?

A. I get +1 Card/+1 Action from Ironworks.
B. I get +$1 from Ironworks.
C. I get no bonus from Ironworks.
I have to go with C. [actually I went with A, sry]

The whole question is what "it" refers to. For guidance let us look to Remodel and Upgrade. Remodel says "the trashed card." Upgrade says "it." But they both mean the same thing, and should work the same. If there were a card that stopped a card from being trashed

There is such a card: Possession.
Quote:
, then Remodel would fail to gain you a card in that situation, and so Upgrade's "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it" should also fail there.

Edit: Okay I've changed my mind already, re-reading Upgrade. Anyone reading Upgrade is going to think that "it" means "the card" rather than somehow implying that the card was trashed. Upgrade and Remodel would work differently and there's no fixing that.
So does this mean that if I possess you, and have you play a remodel during your possessed turn, that no card is gained, because there is no
trashed card to refer to?

Since this has nothing to do with Hinterlands, I have started a discussion of this subject here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve L

Massachusetts
msg tools
sroney wrote:
kevincos wrote:

The super super obscure case of when Ironworks has no valid target is definitely a weird case, but its not because it "failed to gain the card it wanted to gain", it failed to even choose the card that it wants gain. So "it" is totally meaningless in that case. But in the Trader case, "it" still refers to the chosen card.

In fact, it is so obscure that it requires Copper, Silver and Estates to all be empty, thus the game would already be over.....

Or it requires a hypothetical anti-Bridge card, call it River, that makes cards cost more.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Costello
msg tools
andylatto wrote:
donaldx wrote:

The whole question is what "it" refers to. For guidance let us look to Remodel and Upgrade. Remodel says "the trashed card." Upgrade says "it." But they both mean the same thing, and should work the same. If there were a card that stopped a card from being trashed

There is such a card: Possession.

If you read the card text on Possession carefully, it doesn't stop the card from being trashed. It just sets the card aside after it gets trashed, and then puts it in the discard at end of turn.

But there could be a hypothetical reaction that says something like:

"Any time you would trash a card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, gain a silver instead."

In that case, there would be no trashed card, and I believe that Remodel would behave as if you played it with no remaining cards in your hand. But I guess based on Donald's post, Upgrade might still let you gain the card, since it says "it" instead of "the trashed card". Not sure about that part, but I think that's what I got from Donald's explanation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
kevincos wrote:
If you read the card text on Possession carefully, it doesn't stop the card from being trashed. It just sets the card aside after it gets trashed, and then puts it in the discard at end of turn.

But there could be a hypothetical reaction that says something like:

"Any time you would trash a card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, gain a silver instead."

In that case, there would be no trashed card, and I believe that Remodel would behave as if you played it with no remaining cards in your hand. But I guess based on Donald's post, Upgrade might still let you gain the card, since it says "it" instead of "the trashed card". Not sure about that part, but I think that's what I got from Donald's explanation.
I would like to avoid answering rules questions about how hypothetical cards interact with Possession, but yes. Possession does not stop cards from being trashed, its only "would" weirdness is for gaining cards. And I am treating Upgrade's "it" as meaning "the card" rather than "the trashed card," if that ever matters.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A? zombie

Ok, I can understand the argument for C, but I just don't see any way you could rule for A.

I never gained a Great Hall, so how the heck can Ironworks give me stuff for cards I didn't gain?

I didn't gain and then trash the Great Hall, I never gained it in the first place.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Isaac Nuton
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
A? zombie

Ok, I can understand the argument for C, but I just don't see any way you could rule for A.

I never gained a Great Hall, so how the heck can Ironworks give me stuff for cards I didn't gain?

I didn't gain and then trash the Great Hall, I never gained it in the first place.

I thought it was explained relatively clearly, but here it is broken down in the basics (from what I gather):

Ironworks says gain a card, do something else based on the card. The key thing is it does NOT say gain a card, IF YOU DO then do something else. If it were worded like that, the answer would definitely be C. But with your 3rd sentence, you're investing the Ironworks with additional text it doesn't have. Ironworks doesn't require you to successfully gain the card in order for other things to happen...it just doesn't care. Contrast with cards that have the "if you do" wording...if you don't accomplish whatever the first part was (trash a copper on Moneylender, for example), then you don't get the 2nd part.

But that's not how Ironworks is worded. Donald was pointing out that unlike other cards that are kind of similar, this one does not have the 2nd part dependent on the first part. Thus, the result is A.
2 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
A? :zombie:

Ok, I can understand the argument for C, but I just don't see any way you could rule for A.

I never gained a Great Hall, so how the heck can Ironworks give me stuff for cards I didn't gain?

I didn't gain and then trash the Great Hall, I never gained it in the first place.
You never fed the blue dog, so how can you walk it?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Costello
msg tools
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
A? zombie

Ok, I can understand the argument for C, but I just don't see any way you could rule for A.

I never gained a Great Hall, so how the heck can Ironworks give me stuff for cards I didn't gain?

I didn't gain and then trash the Great Hall, I never gained it in the first place.

But where on Ironworks does it say that the bonuses are contingent on gaining the card?

If Ironworks had said:

"Choose a card from the supply. If it is...
an action card...
a treasure card...
a victory card..."

Obviously it wouldn't matter that you don't gain a card.

The ruling was that "it" in Ironworks has the same meaning as it does in the above card. It refers to the card you chose. Specifically, in the Ironworks case, it refers to the card you chose to gain. You chose to gain a Great Hall. Given the above interpretation of "it", there's nothing in the card text that indicates that it matters what you actually gain.

If Ironworks had said "If you gained a..." instead of "If it is..." it would have been different.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [9] |