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Dominion: Hinterlands» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ironworks and Trader rss

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Jeff Wolfe
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banyan wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
Wash a blue dog. If it's...
a shih tzu, get a small cage
a great dane, get a large cage
a dachshund, get a long cage

If you would wash a dog, you may instead wash the pet dog Rover.

To make this fully applicable, you'd have to specify that Rover is a blue great dane. Now what do you get?
No, you wouldn't. In the first case, you're specifying by property (cost<=4, blue) and in the second case, you're specifying by name (Silver, Rover). If we cared about cost, we would be considering "B", which we're not.

Edit: stupid < bug...
 
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Uncle Lar
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I don't seem to remember seeing this come un in this long discussion, but in the Dominion base game rules under Playing The Game/Action Phase it says "To play an Action, the player takes an Action card from his hand and lays it face up in his play area. He announces which card he is playing and follows the instructions written on that card from top to bottom. The player may still play an Action card even if he is not able to do everything the Action card tells him to do; but the player must do as much as he can. Furthermore, the player must fully resolve an Action card before playing another one (if he is able to play another Action card)."

So, wouldn't the Trader card be played after finishing with Ironworks?
"The player" can only play one Action card at a time, correct?
 
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Matt E
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guidobass wrote:
So, wouldn't the Trader card be played after finishing with Ironworks?
"The player" can only play one Action card at a time, correct?
The Trader isn't being "played", it's being "revealed".
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Nate S
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donaldx wrote:
The card doesn't have to stay at a cost of $4 in order to be what "it" refers to.
I don't understand the distinction being made between these two things:

-The first sentence says "gain" so the 2nd sentence must refer to a card that was gained.
-The first sentence says "costing up to $4" but the 2nd sentence need not refer to a card that costs up to $4.

What is special about "Gain" that is not special about "costing up to $4"? I'm not just being argumentative or playing Devil's advocate here; I really don't understand. I thought the new ruling was proposing this interpretation:

"Feed a blue dog. If the blue dog that you fed is..."

But it seems you're actually proposing this instead:

"Feed a blue dog. If the dog of any color that you fed is..."
 
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Charles Waterman
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I'm just being stupid, right? I think you guys are just having fun with a meaningless rules argument, right?

Since Silver is the ONLY card you can receive due to revealing Trader, and at the same time Silver is one of the cards you can choose to receive for Ironworks, it's nonsense to receive another card and then not receive it and receive Silver instead when you can start out receiving Silver.

I gotta go with B. I *have* read your official rulings on this Donald X, but you're kidding around, right? You're not really supporting this attempt to min/maxing this card are you? It's the beginning of Munchkinizing your game!

Are we going to see Munchkinion coming out from Steve Jackson Games soon? Say it ain't so!

Montebanc
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Donald X.
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ghorsche wrote:
donaldx wrote:
The card doesn't have to stay at a cost of $4 in order to be what "it" refers to.
I don't understand the distinction being made between these two things:

-The first sentence says "gain" so the 2nd sentence must refer to a card that was gained.
-The first sentence says "costing up to $4" but the 2nd sentence need not refer to a card that costs up to $4.

What is special about "Gain" that is not special about "costing up to $4"?
What is different is that costing $4 is something that can change, but "did I gain it" isn't.

The question, again, is what "it" means. "It" means "that card you gained that cost $4." If it ceases to cost $4, "it" still refers to the same thing, just as in the color-changing-dog example. If it ceases to be a card you gained... wait it can't do that. The only way it's not a card you gained is if it never was. Whereas it can cost $4 at one point and then cost a different amount later.
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Donald X.
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montebanc wrote:
Since Silver is the ONLY card you can receive due to revealing Trader, and at the same time Silver is one of the cards you can choose to receive for Ironworks, it's nonsense to receive another card and then not receive it and receive Silver instead when you can start out receiving Silver.

I gotta go with B. I *have* read your official rulings on this Donald X, but you're kidding around, right?
The tricky thing is that Trader does not replace the card you would gain with Silver; rather it replaces you gaining a card with a new event, which happens to be you gaining a Silver.

It's this way because Silver may make no sense in the context of the original event.

So if you use Trader, you don't just gain Silver instead of what you would have gained; you also gain that Silver from the supply instead of where you would have gained the other card from, and it goes to your discard pile instead of wherever the other card was going. It's a flat new "gain a Silver."

Ironworks only gives a bonus for the card it's referring to, which is not that Silver that Trader made.
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Charles Waterman
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donaldx wrote:
montebanc wrote:
Since Silver is the ONLY card you can receive due to revealing Trader, and at the same time Silver is one of the cards you can choose to receive for Ironworks, it's nonsense to receive another card and then not receive it and receive Silver instead when you can start out receiving Silver.

I gotta go with B. I *have* read your official rulings on this Donald X, but you're kidding around, right?
The tricky thing is that Trader does not replace the card you would gain with Silver; rather it replaces you gaining a card with a new event, which happens to be you gaining a Silver.

It's this way because Silver may make no sense in the context of the original event.

So if you use Trader, you don't just gain Silver instead of what you would have gained; you also gain that Silver from the supply instead of where you would have gained the other card from, and it goes to your discard pile instead of wherever the other card was going. It's a flat new "gain a Silver."

Ironworks only gives a bonus for the card it's referring to, which is not that Silver that Trader made.

I think I get it. So what your saying is that Trader *ends* the gain that was originally in progress and it doesn't happen. ***Instead*** you gain a Silver as a separate event happening. In that case, receiving no benefit from Ironworks makes sense because the player will not ever receive the card from the Ironworks action. ***Instead*** is the key word I think. Got it! Thanks, Herr Direktor!

Montebanc (no relation, but I GOTTA get me one of them Dice Jester Caps!)
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Dave Goldthorpe
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I would go for A. Cards rulings will be easier if each card is at least consistent within itself.
 
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Nate S
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donaldx wrote:
The question, again, is what "it" means. "It" means "that card you gained that cost $4." If it ceases to cost $4, "it" still refers to the same thing, just as in the color-changing-dog example. If it ceases to be a card you gained... wait it can't do that. The only way it's not a card you gained is if it never was. Whereas it can cost $4 at one point and then cost a different amount later.
OK, I can buy that.
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Jeremy Volk
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ghorsche wrote:
donaldx wrote:
The question, again, is what "it" means. "It" means "that card you gained that cost $4." If it ceases to cost $4, "it" still refers to the same thing, just as in the color-changing-dog example. If it ceases to be a card you gained... wait it can't do that. The only way it's not a card you gained is if it never was. Whereas it can cost $4 at one point and then cost a different amount later.
OK, I can buy that.
Not if it costs more than $4.
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Nate S
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The real question is, if I buy it, will I actually gain it?
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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ghorsche wrote:
The real question is, if I buy it, will I actually gain it?
If you reveal Watchtower, yes. If you reveal Trader, no.
 
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Steve Duff
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As an side, I'm going to be deeply disappointed if the intro blurb for the next expansion doesn't talk about blue dogs.
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Erik Henry
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Aron F.
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After reading all 4 pages of this, I identify with this statement the most:

Theorel wrote:
C has to be the right answer...even though it intuitively feels wrong.

It's impressed me that Donald seems to almost always have an answer for every bizarre rule question like this. But, I'm a realist and know that couldn't continue for ever. It's still far from being "Munchkin", although the comparison is pretty funny.

Now we have a situation that the rules+FAQ truly are ambiguous. I feel this gives everyone the right to play whichever house rules they choose. I'm personally leaning towards 'A'. Just clarify such rules with the group you play with before you start.

UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
As an side, I'm going to be deeply disappointed if the intro blurb for the next expansion doesn't talk about blue dogs.

Thumbs up for you!
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Martín Borda
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donaldx wrote:
Theorel wrote:
The problem with the "blue dog" analogy is that you keep using "the". You're specifying which blue dog independent of feeding it.
Okay I am switching to C on the strength of the "a" vs. "the" argument.

I have been saying "feed the blue dog" but of course the analogous thing would be "feed a blue dog." "The" makes "it" refer to a specific blue dog we already had in mind, but "a" leaves "it" being defined by the action - it means, the blue dog you fed. I can't argue with that.

Ironworks says "gain a card..." so "it" refers to that card. If you fail to gain a card (which you do when you use Trader, since Trader creates its own new card-gaining), then you don't get any bonus.

Ironworks does not say "if you do," but neither do Remodel, Salvager, etc. It's implicit, since the second part of those cards is undefined without a trashed card. For Ironworks, with "it" meaning "the card costing up to $4 that you gained above," the second part again implicitly requires that the first part succeeded.

Sadly this must also apply to Possession. "Gain a card" has an implicit "you;" "it" means "the card you gained," not "the card someone gained." So if you make someone Ironworks a Great Hall via a Possession, you don't get anything.

I prefer A for the better Possession case and well you can try to argue me back into it, preferably with very short posts that include elephant jokes.

I would not expect a change in isotropic functionality here ever, and certainly not soon.

I would not lean heavily on the FAQs for arguments. Of course the FAQs say "the gained card" or whatever; they have to be readable.

Ok, I also prefer C, because with the previous answer (choosing was the trigger, not really gaining) , I found nothing but common sense (no written rule) that forbid me from gaining an empty supply card with Ironworks.
Its text and FAQ specifies that it must be from a pile from the supply, but it doesn't say it can be an empty pile.
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Nate S
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Cards that would be in empty piles are not in the Supply any more than cards that were never in the Kingdom to begin with.

With the benefit of some soak time on the latest ruling, I feel like it's the right thing to do. The implications with Possession horrified me a little at first (since I've been making people play Ironworks while Possessing them and gaining bonuses from it all along), but it's not like that's a problem; it's just different than I was used to.
 
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Jon Simantov
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So, can someone summarize the final ruling on Ironworks/Trader, and how that ruling affects Ironworks/Possession?

I'm assuming that Possession/Remodel/Upgrade hasn't changed, since the Possession FAQ text says that the cards are still trashed before they are set aside.
 
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jsimantov wrote:
So, can someone summarize the final ruling on Ironworks/Trader, and how that ruling affects Ironworks/Possession?

I'm assuming that Possession/Remodel/Upgrade hasn't changed, since the Possession FAQ text says that the cards are still trashed before they are set aside.


I guess I like C as well now reading the FAQ item in the hinterlands manual. Basically it canceled the original gain. That would mean that ironworks would provide no benefit from the gain. I don't play with possession so I won't care to offer rules comments on that one.


From the manual:
"if something would have happened due to gaining the other card; it does not happen"
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Neo42 wrote:
From the manual:
"if something would have happened due to gaining the other card; it does not happen"

Yes, that's in the manual, should someone had posted it before, it would have saved us a lot of discussion...

Edit: How did no one read the manual??? laugh
 
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Kevin Costello
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mborda wrote:
Neo42 wrote:
From the manual:
"if something would have happened due to gaining the other card; it does not happen"

Yes, that's in the manual, should someone had posted it before, it would have saved us a lot of discussion...

Edit: How did no one read the manual??? laugh

Someone did post it, but it doesn't resolve the issue on its own. If you read through the whole thread, the whole debate is whether or not it matters if you gain the card for the purposes of Ironworks. Specifically, does the "it" in Ironworks refer to the card you gained, or the card you tried to gain. If it refers to the card you tried to gain, then the bit from the rulebook doesn't apply.

Basically, there were at least two ways to interpret Ironworks.

1. "Choose a card. Gain it. If it is..."

Here, "it" refers to the card you chose, and it doesn't matter if you actually gained it.

2. "Gain a card. If the card you gained is..."

Here, we replace "it" with a more explicit "the card you gained". In this case, it does matter if you gain the card or not.

Of course, neither of those are what Ironworks actually says.

Ironworks just says. "Gain a card. If it is..." which is somewhat ambiguous without Donald's ruling.

Donald has ruled that "it" refers to the card you gained, meaning that the bonuses only make sense if you actually gained a card, which is reasonable, although I still like option "A" where you get the bonus based on the card you tried to gain better (from the original post)
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Jeff Wolfe
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mborda wrote:
Neo42 wrote:
From the manual:
"if something would have happened due to gaining the other card; it does not happen"

Yes, that's in the manual, should someone had posted it before, it would have saved us a lot of discussion...

Edit: How did no one read the manual??? laugh
The Ironworks ability does not say, "Gain a card.... If you do,...." So it is not obvious that the Ironworks ability depends upon gaining the card. I'm still not convinced that it does. If it doesn't, then that sentence doesn't matter.

Edit: Ninja'd. So, what he said, except the wording on #2 should probably be "Gain a card. If you do, if the card you gained is...."

Also, the ruling affects Possession, because if you are possessed, you don't gain the card from Ironworks either.
 
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Are there any other card combinations this affects besides Ironworks/Possession and Ironworks/Trader that aren't already discussed in the Hinterlands FAQ?
 
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Kevin Costello
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I think the ruling of "C" is reasonable, but I still like "A" better. Also, I don't really like that it almost seems like the latest ruling of "C" is derived more from an analogy to feeding and walking blue dogs than it is from the actual card text. The logic there seemed to make sense for the blue dogs, but when I tried to apply it back to Ironworks, it still didn't sit right with me.

The reason I still think "A" is better has to do with the idea that the phrase "Gain a card" is a command, not a statement of fact. This is related to what happens if a card says "Gain a curse" but there is no curse. In such a case, the card that you were told to gain is a Curse, but you didn't gain a card.

So back to Ironworks, there are two things that "it" could refer to. There's the card that you gain. Or, there's the card that you were instructed to gain by ironworks. I think "it" should refer to the card you were instructed to gain, simply because Ironworks can't ever make you gain a card. Ironworks can only tell you to gain a card.

So the only card that is ever even described by Ironworks is the card that it instructed you to gain, which happens to be the card you chose from the supply. So my position is still that this is what "it" should refer to, and as a result, it shouldn't matter if you actually gain the card.

Also:
How do you make an elephant float?
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Take two scoops of ice cream, some soda, and one elephant.
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