Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Roving Cauldron rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Laufle
United States
San Ramon
California
flag msg tools
designer
I enjoy games about Stalingrad
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Concerning German Card #19 Roving Cauldon.

"You may retreat all the units in one Battle,
regardless of their supply status, through Enemy Zones of Control
without any penalty."

Can this card be played as the German battle card before the dice roll and effectively end the combat?
Or can it only be played to modify a retreat result for the German player after the combat results have been obtained.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C M
Germany
flag msg tools
Move along, move along...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the game, retreat is only possible as a combat result, so I assume this card is to be played only after the combat results have been determined. Playing the card then protects the retreating units from being eliminated due to the retreat being blocked.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Laufle
United States
San Ramon
California
flag msg tools
designer
I enjoy games about Stalingrad
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Unfortunately
rule [5.3.2] "Event Precedence: When there is a conflict between Event text and the Rules, the Event text takes precedence."

It has been argued that this allows a retreat outside of the normal sequence and simply defines the nature of this move as a 'retreat' and all that entails outside of the card effect.

But then I've argued this enough with opponents. In the end it came to the forums. I respect your point of view. It's hard to say which side of the answer I stand on as the card probably needed just a teeny bit more specification on it. In the end, I await the 'Word of Carl' as final authority. cool
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
Germany
München
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Wiggle It!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The question is:

- Does "You may retreat all the units in one Battle, ..." is a modification of the combat result/the combat itself?
or:
- Is it a modification of an occuring retreat due to the combat result, since the sentence modifies the rules how to retreat.

I'll say it's the latter, since other cards clearly indicate a combat result, if you can "override" the combat result with the card. Meaning, if you could play this card, it would be sentenced like this:
"Play this before any one battle. The result is DR." and then following the sentence on the card...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C M
Germany
flag msg tools
Move along, move along...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see your point, but would think in this case the card should be phrased more explicitely. I think it owuld be somewhat confusing to use the term "retreat" for this kind of movement, as this term is associated with a specific action and tming in the game.

But I agree, the jury is out and it is Carl!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
Germany
München
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Wiggle It!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree, a final clarification by the designer would be good - but I'm in the mood for discussing this topic... :-)

Yes, and because "Retreat" is a fix term - see rules 10.7.5 - this card applies to this term. I think that only makes it clearer?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The intent of this card is:

If you have to retreat some units, you can do it through enemy ZOCs.

You cannot do this before a battle, but only if the battle result causes the units to retreat (probably DR, DS or DD). Retreats only applies to a combat result.

If I wanted for units to do such a move BEFORE battle resolution I would have said: You can move a stack of units towards your own supply lines 2 hexes before battle, ignoring enemy ZOCs.

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
Germany
München
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Wiggle It!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Almecho wrote:
Thank you!



You're most welcome. The card could have certainly been better worded. None of the playtesters complained about it and the card is like this since the first edition of the game in 2008.

If there is a reprint one of these days I'll correct the text.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Blanchett
United States
St Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
None of the playtesters complained about it and the card is like this since the first edition of the game in 2008.


Yeah, 'cause the text makes perfect sense.

Wow...

I guess we see that everything is subject to over analyzing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gb1469 wrote:
I guess we see that everything is subject to over analyzing.


LOL! It's the "Wargamer's curse"!

Yet I think it's a good sign: the game is being played often.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Laufle
United States
San Ramon
California
flag msg tools
designer
I enjoy games about Stalingrad
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Carl! And yes, given our local group is running a 'Tournament' of the game soon, we are starting to get 'a bit serious' in our plays a little.devil

Enjoying the game immensely and looking forward to playing it quite a bit in the immediate future.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rhuned wrote:
Thanks Carl! And yes, given our local group is running a 'Tournament' of the game soon, we are starting to get 'a bit serious' in our plays a little.devil

Enjoying the game immensely and looking forward to playing it quite a bit in the immediate future.


Wow. that's great. The game plays fast and there is a lot of scenarios: it's very good for Tournament plays. Do post some pictures and an AAr if at all possible.

BTW, with all those event cards, it's alway spossible that a loophole or two could be there, I tried my very best to make sure this does not happen, but the card combinations are almost endless, so you never know. Up to know the system has held up quite well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.