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Subject: If all players at the table are infected, the Host is the only winner rss

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Clyde W
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This rule tweak, inspired by jsciv, provides the game's players the proper motivation that a traitor game needs to work correctly.

- If you're the host, it encourages you to infect as much as possible.

- If you're infected, it encourages you to kill at least one human.

- If you're human, it encourages you to stay human.

And that's exactly what the game needs so that all players are forced to play in the spirit of the game.

Am I missing something? If not, this is the only way I'll play the game in the future.
 
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Tadeu Zubaran
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Although I think it`s an improvement it just postpones the problem. Once the first player is killed it`s again an "advantage" to be infected.
 
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Mark Ellis
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clydeiii wrote:
This rule tweak, inspired by jsciv, provides the game's players the proper motivation that a traitor game needs to work correctly.

- If you're the host, it encourages you to infect as much as possible.

- If you're infected, it encourages you to kill at least one human.

- If you're human, it encourages you to stay human.

And that's exactly what the game needs so that all players are forced to play in the spirit of the game.

Am I missing something? If not, this is the only way I'll play the game in the future.
I see what you're trying to do here, but I think the sentence I've highlighted shows the issue - in my experience you can't force people to play "in the spirit of the game", regardless of technical rules tweaking.

What you need are players who are prepared to be faithful to the game's RPG elements (as alluded to in a recent thread by the game's designer), i.e. as a human you should be properly motivated to remain human and win as a human since in keeping with the game's theme you would not wish to become infected - your mission is to destroy the hive. To ignore this is to ignore the "spirit of the game". If the worst happens and you become infected, then I see no problem with your motivations changing *at this point* towards thwarting the remaining humans, again in keeping with the game's theme. In terms of who 'wins' in such a scenario, I see the 'hot potato' variant as a natural extension of the fact that the host is likely to feel most like the winner, with each successive infected a little less so since during the game they have experienced the small 'defeat' of becoming infected, and have likely had less of a hand in stopping the humans the later this happened to them.

Is there really such a problem with this?

I can't help feeling that critics have been taking too inflexible an interpretation of 'win'/'lose' which disregards the theme to some extent and doesn't seem to fit the game.

Yes, I do have to admit I haven't played this yet, so perhaps I will stand to be corrected on trying it, but I would be surprised from what I've read and am really looking forward to my first game.
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David Ausloos
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luckyduke wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
This rule tweak, inspired by jsciv, provides the game's players the proper motivation that a traitor game needs to work correctly.

- If you're the host, it encourages you to infect as much as possible.

- If you're infected, it encourages you to kill at least one human.

- If you're human, it encourages you to stay human.

And that's exactly what the game needs so that all players are forced to play in the spirit of the game.

Am I missing something? If not, this is the only way I'll play the game in the future.
I see what you're trying to do here, but I think the sentence I've highlighted shows the issue - in my experience you can't force people to play "in the spirit of the game", regardless of technical rules tweaking.

What you need are players who are prepared to be faithful to the game's RPG elements (as alluded to in a recent thread by the game's designer), i.e. as a human you should be properly motivated to remain human and win as a human since in keeping with the game's theme you would not wish to become infected - your mission is to destroy the hive. To ignore this is to ignore the "spirit of the game". If the worst happens and you become infected, then I see no problem with your motivations changing *at this point* towards thwarting the remaining humans, again in keeping with the game's theme. In terms of who 'wins' in such a scenario, I see the 'hot potato' variant as a natural extension of the fact that the host is likely to feel most like the winner, with each successive infected a little less so since during the game they have experienced the small 'defeat' of becoming infected, and have likely had less of a hand in stopping the humans the later this happened to them.

Is there really such a problem with this?

I can't help feeling that critics have been taking too inflexible an interpretation of 'win'/'lose' which disregards the theme to some extent and doesn't seem to fit the game.

Yes, I do have to admit I haven't played this yet, so perhaps I will stand to be corrected on trying it, but I would be surprised from what I've read and am really looking forward to my first game.


The truth is that the large majority of players have no problem and approach the game from the angle of an experience game.
The emotional victory is more important than the mechanical victory.
in all honesty: in all the demos I did I have never met a player who had a difficulty with the winning conditions.
Call me stuborn (like one BGG seems to do) but that is how it is.


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Joshua Harris
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ausloosd wrote:

Call me stuborn (like one BGG seems to do) but that is how it is.


-Stubbornly spend time answering questions
-Stubbornly spending time improving your product
-Stubbornly defending your vision of the game

You are my kind of stubborn David!
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Joseph Cochran
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luckyduke wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
And that's exactly what the game needs so that all players are forced to play in the spirit of the game.

I see what you're trying to do here, but I think the sentence I've highlighted shows the issue - in my experience you can't force people to play "in the spirit of the game", regardless of technical rules tweaking.


I would have said encourage people to play in the spirit, not force, and I believe this does do that. You are right that you can't force it, but the rules can reinforce the intended behavior with that minor tweak.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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ausloosd wrote:
The truth is that the large majority of players have no problem and approach the game from the angle of an experience game.
The emotional victory is more important than the mechanical victory.
in all honesty: in all the demos I did I have never met a player who had a difficulty with the winning conditions.
Call me stuborn (like one BGG seems to do) but that is how it is.


You're right, the majority of people drawn to this game will probably have no issue. However, you did tweak the rules to make it so that players couldn't "game the system" so that there was a 50/50 chance that no host entered the game, so you DO see how altering the rules to reinforce intended play style is important, don't you?
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David Ausloos
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Yes master Joseph, your are right. Always
No seriously, there is a big difference in pushing players towards a certain frame of mind and avoiding players to sabotage the system.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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ausloosd wrote:
Yes master Joseph, your are right. Always
No seriously, there is a big difference in pushing players towards a certain frame of mind and avoiding players to sabotage the system.


I certainly hope I haven't offended. That's not my intention at all. I just want the game to be as good as it possibly can. I have no illusions about me being more right or wrong than anyone else. It's your game and ultimately your call on how things go. So I'm sorry if I've caused offense in any way.
 
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David Ausloos
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jsciv wrote:
ausloosd wrote:
Yes master Joseph, your are right. Always
No seriously, there is a big difference in pushing players towards a certain frame of mind and avoiding players to sabotage the system.


I certainly hope I haven't offended. That's not my intention at all. I just want the game to be as good as it possibly can. I have no illusions about me being more right or wrong than anyone else. It's your game and ultimately your call on how things go. So I'm sorry if I've caused offense in any way.


No worries Joseph.
Actually, my comment was a bit of a tongue-in-cheeck-reaction.
I really appreciate all the energy you have put in expressing your toughts and coming up with some interesting alternatives.
I appreciate this enormously and I am really moved by how much feedback we gathered right after the revision was posted.
This revision is by the way not definitive, and we will use all the gathered feedback to compile a defintive version before we send it to the printers. So all these comments do have a direct impact.
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Phil Mawson
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Just another case of players who meta-game and those who play for the spirit and theme. Choose your fellow players wisely. That is the only solution. Just in the same way that I would not allow players into my D&D games who would exploit rules to make their characters as powerful as possible rather than make an interesting character regardless of flaws or otherwise.

Quality game by the way Dave!
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David Ausloos
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Nyogtha wrote:
Just another case of players who meta-game and those who play for the spirit and theme. Choose your fellow players wisely. That is the only solution. Just in the same way that I would not allow players into my D&D games who would exploit rules to make their characters as powerful as possible rather than make an interesting character regardless of flaws or otherwise.

Quality game by the way Dave!


Thanks for the nice words Phil. Glad you like the game.
My big frustration at the moment is that (what was to be expected) the game has summoned two destinctive camps with almost no middleground:
Those who love it (luckily a large majority) and those who hate it.
The problem is that the haters are often very harsh in their rating (often based on one or two failed sessions or not being able to win either as the host or as the humans, declaring the game "broken").
If some keep rating the game as low as 3 or less, the haters will alway take the upper hand in the average.
Ah well, I guess I have to live with the fact it is impossible to please everyone.
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Clyde W
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Nyogtha wrote:
Just another case of players who meta-game and those who play for the spirit and theme. Choose your fellow players wisely. That is the only solution. Just in the same way that I would not allow players into my D&D games who would exploit rules to make their characters as powerful as possible rather than make an interesting character regardless of flaws or otherwise.

Quality game by the way Dave!
Comparison to D&D not valid, as it is neither a traitor game nor does it involve players switching sides. You must think about this genre of games in terms of motivation if you wish to design a game that lasts the test of time.

For the record I rate the game a 7 and look forward to upping the rating as soon as its motivation issues are sorted out.
 
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Joshua Harris
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clydeiii wrote:
Comparison to D&D not valid, as it is neither a traitor game nor does it involve players switching sides. You must think about this genre of games in terms of motivation if you wish to design a game that lasts the test of time.


Battlestar galactica: Playing sub-optimally as a human in order to reduce the chances of getting a cylon sympathizer. This is allowed in the rules, yet it stinks of "gaming" the game. You are doing something contrary to your current goals, based on the fact that you MIGHT be on the other side in the future.

People who play this way are not people I enjoy gaming with.
 
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Clyde W
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Cornbread46 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Comparison to D&D not valid, as it is neither a traitor game nor does it involve players switching sides. You must think about this genre of games in terms of motivation if you wish to design a game that lasts the test of time.


Battlestar galactica: Playing sub-optimally as a human in order to reduce the chances of getting a cylon sympathizer. This is allowed in the rules, yet it stinks of "gaming" the game. You are doing something contrary to your current goals, based on the fact that you MIGHT be on the other side in the future.

People who play this way are not people I enjoy gaming with.
Indeed, and FFG patched the game to prevent such players (which we both dislike but both agree exist) from doing crap like that. Panic Station, I believe, needs a similar patch.
 
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