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Subject: New BGG Page for Second Edition rss

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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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wolvendancer wrote:

As writers, you and I are better off worrying about how much, and how well, we've written today. And Mr. Peterson is better off worrying about dumping the cheap marketing pastiches his company has been passing off as boardgames during the past year, confronting the reality that videogame/movie/fiction "properties" don't matter if the game is underdeveloped and overproduced, and he'd be well-served getting back to actually producing games that excite people again.


Surely you must realize that, in terms of sales, these underdeveloped and overproduced games do just fine. So while I appreciate your message and panache, your conclusion is ultimately off the mark.
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In my opinion, Mr. Peterson clearly didn't show the best judgement in his replies, especially as the president of FFG. But he is human, and he, like everyone else, makes mistakes. He obviously has a close friendship with Dr. Knizia. I know I have overreacted before when felt like someone I cared about was being wronged. Nothing in this thread has impacted my willingness to support FFG or Sirlin games.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Games, like writing or visual media, evolve over time influenced by works of the previous generation. It is unrealistic to expect a list of everything that may have had mechanics utilized in the new products development. Descent is influenced by Heroquest, Runewars was influenced by Warrior Knights, and every FFG LCG is influenced by MTG. They take a mechanic that exists and change or add to it to produce a new game. If the new product is so similar to the old that it is difficult to tell what has been added or changed, then that is a copyright issue and should left for the courts to decide on.
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petercox1001 wrote:
Art Damage, that is a good post, but I don't see what you are saying as contradicting my point.

If I write a script or a novel, and someone adapts it, then I'd expect some credit for the work I've done. Say someone makes a film out of my book. Or uses the characters in a sequel. Well, I'd get something for it - bare minimum some acknowledgement.

That doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of artistic influence.

At the end of the day, it basically it comes down to what is the degree of similarity is. I find both games to be astoundingly similar, to the point where it is an adaptation or a expansion rather than a new game. Hey, others might disagree. Some even say they are nothing alike, though for the life of me, I can't complrehend how they would have come to that conclusion if you look honestly at how both games function.

Yeah, a court has decided you can't copyright those mechanics. That's nothing to do with morals or ethics though. Those are a little more arbitrary. It is my subjective opinion that the copying of Knizia's mechanics without proper acknowledgement is inethical. Does that mean I think there should be some law banning the game, or allowing Knezia to sue. No necessarily, because I understand the value of allowing creativity to flourish. Although obviously there must be a balance.

That doesn't mean I don't think someone is a douche if they wholesale copy something and then refuse to acknowledge it.

So hey, it's subjective to an extent and I accept that. But don't patronise me with some stawman argument about 'artistic influence' please.

EDITS: politeness added.


And I really don't find anything unethical in using ideas that someone else has CHOSEN to share with the world (if IP law doesn't prevent it). If you don't want anyone else to use your ideas, don't share them with anyone. Trying to have it both ways seems to be the immoral stance.
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petercox1001 wrote:
EXACTLY the same.


Quote:

Damn addressing the actual facts.


The cool thing about your post is that you don't do what you say you do
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Dear Mr. Peter Cox,

I think it is sort of a misunderstanding here. You are saying that Flash Duel and En Garde are "remarkably similar in mechanics. In fact, shamelessly so."

This is actually contrary to almost every other post in this thread, which have done a great job explaining the many differences. I think Dr Sirlin would be sad that his improvements were ignored.

You are entitled to your opinion, though. Everyone has a different level for what constitutes shameless similar mechanics.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Sirlin actually did admit that specific mechanics have been used before, he does acknowledge that. I'm not sure if some people expect more, such as a listing of every game that had an influence over the new product. I would point out though, by that logic every new game/song/movie/book should have a listing of hundreds of sources that aided to the development of that mediums modern form.
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petercox1001 wrote:

Well again, it's the 'degree' to which you see the similarity in the scale of being a minor influence complete plagiarism. Obviously it would be ridiculous to list every minor influence. But you might expect a film to acknowledge it was adapted from a book, for example.


I completely agree Peter. Taking your analogy of a book adaptation, it would take the whole story or at least a significant portion to be an adaptation. A move about a killer clown for instance may be influenced by 'It' but I would question if that would be enough to warrent a need for official aknowledgement. A lot of games on BGG, and many by FFG, use a mechanic here and there from other games. In many cases entire game categories have developed based on a single game, for example almost all new deck builders have very similar mechanics to Dominion. As far as I have seen reading the rule of FD and EG, keeping in mind I have not played either, a mechanic from EG was used but that is where it ends. FD adds a whole whack of new mechanics, gamemodes, theme, etc. Enough in my opinion anyways, that it is different enough not to require any further acknowledgement.
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It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.
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inb4 Jay Tummelson submits a post defending Donald X.'s design.




Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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petercox1001 wrote:
Well said! Okay, it's not gonna get better than that so I'll respectfully desist posting.


No need to desist. The conversation has been fascinating, some really thoughtful posts. This wouldn't be as interesting if it wasn't a grey area.

I should also mention I have never created any work of note so I am less likely to be incensed by someone pinching my genius.
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petercox1001 wrote:
Well said! Okay, it's not gonna get better than that so I'll respectfully desist posting.


I can beat that, watch...

Bacon!
 
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simem wrote:
His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original.


Highly original? Some would say it fails to credit the inventor of Rock Paper Scissors, a game with which it shares large similarities.
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garcia1000 wrote:
simem wrote:
His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original.


Highly original? Some would say it fails to credit the inventor of Rock Paper Scissors, a game with which it shares large similarities.


I suspected that would come up but my I couldn't find which designer would take umbrage to the theft. In reality the points made regarding Flash Duels similarities are more interesting than Puzzle Strike/Dominion and Yomi/Paper-Scissors-Rock.
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This is an important issue for game designers and publishers, and it seems it is one that can only be won or lost in the court of public opinion, as the other courts are too expensive for us (it's not as if Dr. Knizia is reading this from his villa in Monaco, neither is Mr. Peterson). Furthermore, the laws simply do no offer much protection, and therefore it is--if not legal--at least, admirable to contact the original designer, when one is knowingly basing his or her own work on that designer's previous work.

For the sake of argument on this particular instance, I would propose the following scenario:
Gryphon Games announces a new Dr. Knizia game based on his previous hit, "En Garde." The new version offers many new twists, including the possibility for team play and characters with special powers.

And many people wonder why Dr. Knizia produces so many spin-off's and variations of his own games. He's simply trying to get them out there before other designers do spin-off's and variations of his games.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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petercox1001 wrote:


(though I guess I shouldn't under-estimate an individual's capacity for self-delusion)




Well said.
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simem wrote:
It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.



You brought up a very good point about David's background. I have never seen Tekken credit Street Fighter, or Battlefield credit Call of Duty, or any JRPG credit Square. In fact, when I start to think about it, video game designers actually rarely discourage the sharing of ideas. They leech off of each other's innovations. Directors of movies rarely credit other directors for their movies. Car manufacturers don't credit each other for new designs. It seems like Mr. Petersen wants this to be an exception.

The same still seams to apply to the majority of the board game industry also.

Did Yugioh or Pokemon TCG or WoW TCG credit Magic? Has White Wolf ever credited TSR? Did Privateer Press credit Games Workshop? Did Milton Bradly ever ask for credit when games started to advance pass Candy Land and The Game of Life?

To be clear when I say credit I am asking if the parties involved ever paid for a license or royalties to invent their product.

We all no the answer. So no need to actually reply.

Bottom line for me is that if Mr. Petersen is so afraid of Sirlin as competition then maybe he should up his game. I am surprised he isn't calling out Soda Pop minis for Super Dungeon Explore copying Descent.

As I have said before, I personally think FFG was making a game very similar to En Guarde/Flash Duel. FFG got the doctor's permission and now they are mad that they can't even compete with Flash Duel or corner that side of the market.

It's okay though because now they understand how Richard Hamblen and Andrea Angiolino might feel. whistle

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DarkKami wrote:
simem wrote:
It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.



You brought up a very good point about David's background. I have never seen Tekken credit Street Fighter, or Battlefield credit Call of Duty, or any JRPG credit Square. In fact, when I start to think about it, video game designers actually rarely discourage the sharing of ideas. They leech off of each other's innovations. Directors of movies rarely credit other directors for their movies. Car manufacturers don't credit each other for new designs. It seems like Mr. Petersen wants this to be an exception.

The same still seams to apply to the majority of the board game industry also.

Did Yugioh or Pokemon TCG or WoW TCG credit Magic? Has White Wolf ever credited TSR? Did Privateer Press credit Games Workshop? Did Milton Bradly ever ask for credit when games started to advance passed Candy Land and The Game of Life?

To be clear when I say credit I am asking if the parties involved ever paid for a license or royalties to invent their product.

We all no the answer. So no need to actually reply.

Bottom line for me is that if Mr. Petersen is so afraid of Sirlin as competition then maybe he should up his game. I am surprised he isn't calling out Soda Pop minis for Super Dungeon Explore copying Descent.

As I have said before, I personally think FFG was making a game very similar to En Guarde/Flash Duel. FFG got the doctor's permission and now they are mad that they can't even compete with Flash Duel or corner that side of the market.

It's okay though because now they understand how Richard Hamblen and Andrea Angiolino might feel. whistle



Someone said that some ccg companies have had to pay fees to wotc for their patent. Don't know if it's true, but clearly we all don't know the answer. Feel free to research it!

And please quit confusing various forms of IP. There's a lot of informative posts around here that will explain how they work.
 
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jeffinberlin wrote:


And many people wonder why Dr. Knizia produces so many spin-off's and variations of his own games. He's simply trying to get them out there before other designers do spin-off's and variations of his games.


Heh, and I just saw that as laziness. Is this why Capcom and Activision makes over 3 variations of one game. Same could be said about Settlers and Ticket to Ride.
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DarkKami wrote:
jeffinberlin wrote:


And many people wonder why Dr. Knizia produces so many spin-off's and variations of his own games. He's simply trying to get them out there before other designers do spin-off's and variations of his games.


Heh, and I just saw that as laziness. Is this why Capcom and Activision makes over 3 variations of one game. Same could be said about Settlers and Ticket to Ride.


It's not laziness, it just makes good business sense. 1) New IP development takes a lot of time, so expansions that don't require as much development provide economies of scale. 2) Expansions have a built-in audience that helps with product placement, advertising, and promotion. 3) Expansions provide much less risk than a product using new IP.
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scifiantihero wrote:
DarkKami wrote:
simem wrote:
It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.



You brought up a very good point about David's background. I have never seen Tekken credit Street Fighter, or Battlefield credit Call of Duty, or any JRPG credit Square. In fact, when I start to think about it, video game designers actually rarely discourage the sharing of ideas. They leech off of each other's innovations. Directors of movies rarely credit other directors for their movies. Car manufacturers don't credit each other for new designs. It seems like Mr. Petersen wants this to be an exception.

The same still seams to apply to the majority of the board game industry also.

Did Yugioh or Pokemon TCG or WoW TCG credit Magic? Has White Wolf ever credited TSR? Did Privateer Press credit Games Workshop? Did Milton Bradly ever ask for credit when games started to advance passed Candy Land and The Game of Life?

To be clear when I say credit I am asking if the parties involved ever paid for a license or royalties to invent their product.

We all no the answer. So no need to actually reply.

Bottom line for me is that if Mr. Petersen is so afraid of Sirlin as competition then maybe he should up his game. I am surprised he isn't calling out Soda Pop minis for Super Dungeon Explore copying Descent.

As I have said before, I personally think FFG was making a game very similar to En Guarde/Flash Duel. FFG got the doctor's permission and now they are mad that they can't even compete with Flash Duel or corner that side of the market.

It's okay though because now they understand how Richard Hamblen and Andrea Angiolino might feel. whistle



Someone said that some ccg companies have had to pay fees to wotc for their patent. Don't know if it's true, but clearly we all don't know the answer. Feel free to research it!

And please quit confusing various forms of IP. There's a lot of informative posts around here that will explain how they work.


I requested this topic to be removed...
now I am just playing "village idiot and devil's advocate" until it does.

I hate trolls as much as the next guy but I am having fun with this one. You see sad thing is some people will read what I say as fact.

If you must know my personal opinion. I don't care about other people stealing my ideas. In one sick way or another it makes me happy to know someone required my existence to succeed. I actually hand out free material and ideas, just to see what others can use it for. One thing I don't have a lot of is free time. I spend what little I have on trying to help my customers or students. Life is too trivial and short to fight or care about copyrights and profits.

I remember when students were calling out Avatar for copying various movies. I would just shrug and say "your point?".

 
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Ugh. I called out avatar for being terrible! At least people care enough about this game . . .
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darksurtur wrote:
DarkKami wrote:
jeffinberlin wrote:


And many people wonder why Dr. Knizia produces so many spin-off's and variations of his own games. He's simply trying to get them out there before other designers do spin-off's and variations of his games.


Heh, and I just saw that as laziness. Is this why Capcom and Activision makes over 3 variations of one game. Same could be said about Settlers and Ticket to Ride.


It's not laziness, it just makes good business sense. 1) New IP development takes a lot of time, so expansions that don't require as much development provide economies of scale. 2) Expansions have a built-in audience that helps with product placement, advertising, and promotion. 3) Expansions provide much less risk than a product using new IP.


True. For sake of debate, so what you are saying is that he plays it safe? Where as Mr. Sirlin takes risks? So risk taking is not good for business?

Mr. Sirlin made three separate games in the same Fantasy Strike universe instead of just re-imaging YOMI.

1) He kept the same IP for all of his games.
2) The universe rather than the individual game mechanics created fans of his games.
3) All three of Sirlin's games share the same support and fans.

What intrigues me most about Mr. Sirlin is how his background as a video game developer really sets him apart from board game developers. From his ideas to his business model.

I am going to drop the flaming and trolling because it is actually starting to upset me that I allowed myself to drop so low.
 
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DarkKami wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
It's not laziness, it just makes good business sense. 1) New IP development takes a lot of time, so expansions that don't require as much development provide economies of scale. 2) Expansions have a built-in audience that helps with product placement, advertising, and promotion. 3) Expansions provide much less risk than a product using new IP.


True. For sake of debate, so what you are saying is that he plays it safe? Where as Mr. Sirlin takes risks? So risk taking is not good for business?

Mr. Sirlin made three separate games in the same Fantasy Strike universe instead of just re-imaging YOMI.

Still, isn't the new Flash Duel: Second Edition a reimplementation of Flash Duel? So it's not as if he doesn't also "play it safe" occasionally.

Quote:
What intrigues me most about Mr. Sirlin is how his background as a video game developer really sets him apart from board game developers. From his ideas to his business model.

Indeed, his atypical background definitely seems to lead him in a different direction than many boardgame designers, and that seems a good thing for sparking experimentation and progress in different directions. (I would suppose his boardgame experience might similarly carry back to computer game design ideas for him.)
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Joseph Arthur Ellis
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apotheos wrote:
[The] library of "yet another thinly veiled math exercise presented my Dr Knizia" are especially poorly suited to claims of this nature. En Garde is competitive counting. Allowing him the ability to broadly claim ownership of those concepts would be destructive and foolish.

Had to bring apotheos' point back because the last few pages are ignoring it...

I certainly find it disturbing when one company appears to be ripping off someone else's game. However, there needs to be more to a game for me to get angry about it. En Garde is so freaking simple and generic, how can you complain? When Knizia designed it, he could've wrote up rules that use a deck of cards and two coins and just shared it as a homebrew/print and play. Only because he's Reiner Knizia was this game ever published.

That's not a rip on En Garde. It's very good, but it's outrageously simple. It's really not fair to compare this to songs or books. Even a short song or poem demands details from its author: notes, words, punctuation, etc. En Garde is basically a skeleton. There's nothing wrong with that; unlike a poem or a song, a skeleton can make a great game and Knizia is the master of that. But surely Knizia himself can see the difference between someone copying En Garde and someone copying Tigris & Euphrates or Palazzo or whatnot.

I'm in the minority here because I'm not emphasizing the games' differences; Sirlin's source is obvious. But I'll say it again: Making a game that can be played with a half dozen rules and a deck of regular playing cards does not constitute Intellectual Property, legal or gentlemanly or otherwise.

Think of it this way. Let's say Knizia, all those years ago, had taken En Garde to the publisher and the publisher came back and said,, "It's really great, but there's just not enough there. Can you add some variants or some flavor?" Knizia goes home, thinks about it, and comes up with a bunch of new rules, like a complex set of advantages the loser chooses from for the next round, and a mode where three players play a free-for-all, and for each space on the board he adds a special move that the players can do only when they're on that space.

Now, imagine, twenty years later, that Sirlin comes along and creates Flash Duel exactly as it exists today. Does anyone really care? Of course not; that would be EXACTLY like all of Dominion's clones, where the CORE is exactly the same (Action, Buy, Cleanup) but the DETAILS are different. I suppose Dominion's creators should have first published the ultra-simple version of Dominion that only has coin and victory point cards, and maybe a +1 action and a +1 buy card. That way, they would have had the defense of the community when all the imitators appeared. That would be silly of course, but that's exactly what's happening here. So it's the DETAILS that cause a game to deserve protection from copying, not the CORE of the game, even if that's all there is to the game.
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