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Subject: Aussie Year End Math Trade 2011 rss

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Panda Z
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The Aussie Year End Math Trade is now up. You do not have to be attending CanCon to take part in the trade, but it may help to reduce postage if you can find a games mule to take them for you and your target is attending.

Link for the trade here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/75364/the-australian-year-...

Cheers!
cool
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Panda Z
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Special thanks to the Wiggles for having a concert in ACT so I can post the Math Trade list. laugh
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Gregor McNish
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What does "modified to allow geek list integration" mean (in the section talking about the modified math trade software).
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John Farrell
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The standard maths trade software doesn't acknowledge that there's a geeklist associated with the trade. The version we run, which was hacked at by me, knows about the geeklist and so is able to produce a HTML results page with links to the geeklist entries. It also looks in the geeklist for the trade codes and does extra error checking to ensure that the things people are trading actually exist in the trade, and we can warn people they've made mistakes. Even with a well-trained mob like us, there are lots of mistakes in the stuff people send in.
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Gregor McNish
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Ahh, cool. All the stuff I've come to spect as a matter of course. Now I know how spoiled we are,
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Bruce Murphy
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If only there were a way to offer multiple games for one other. There isn't, is there?


B>
 
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Alvin C
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thepackrat wrote:
If only there were a way to offer multiple games for one other. There isn't, is there?

There is - sweeteners.

To offer multiple item numbers, you would at some point need someone to accept multiple items in order to close the loop. I can only imagine how complicated this would be for everyone involved!
 
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John Farrell
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thepackrat wrote:
If only there were a way to offer multiple games for one other. There isn't, is there?


If we can ever figure out how to work it mathematically, there would be, but I don't know how to handle branches in loops :-).
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Friendless wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
If only there were a way to offer multiple games for one other. There isn't, is there?


If we can ever figure out how to work it mathematically, there would be, but I don't know how to handle branches in loops :-).


It might be an interesting optimisation problem. It could be that the gap could be made up in cash as well. "Accept Game A, or Game B and $X".

B>
 
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John Farrell
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Now that's an interesting idea... if people could give their games cash-equivalent values, we wouldn't be constrained to match 1 item to 1 item...
 
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Friendless wrote:
Now that's an interesting idea... if people could give their games cash-equivalent values, we wouldn't be constrained to match 1 item to 1 item...


It would be much easier to calculate cash equivalent with receiver/buyer pays postage! Without it, a nightmare.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Cash equivalents for small postage-friendly games wouldn't be so horrible.

B>
 
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Unhalfbricking wrote:
Friendless wrote:
Now that's an interesting idea... if people could give their games cash-equivalent values, we wouldn't be constrained to match 1 item to 1 item...


It would be much easier to calculate cash equivalent with receiver/buyer pays postage! Without it, a nightmare.


You just had to open up that can of worms didn't you.



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Gregor McNish
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Friendless wrote:
Now that's an interesting idea... if people could give their games cash-equivalent values, we wouldn't be constrained to match 1 item to 1 item...


We can do this already in the marketplace. Sell games, buy games. I think the fun of the trade is that you don't worry quite so much about tit for tat on individual items, just over the whole trade list.

Or are you thinking the trade list would no longer be for individual games butnwould become
I would pay x$ for this, y for that...
I want to get a$ for this, b for that
I'm willing to throw in +/- d$
Surprise me!

So we wouldn't be trading individual games, but pools of them. A multi headed bin packing problem.
You could add cash sweeteners for games-- I'll pay you to take this off my hands.
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Bruce Murphy
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Cash used as a way of easing friction between small value differences, basically.

B>
 
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John Farrell
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gmcnish wrote:
Or are you thinking the trade list would no longer be for individual games but would become
I would pay x$ for this, y for that...
I want to get a$ for this, b for that
I'm willing to throw in +/- d$
Surprise me!


Yes, exactly. I intend to write up a spec mathematically so I can understand what the problem is, then think about how to code it efficiently. I also wonder whether a trade event is needed at all, or whether we could make it a continuous process, i.e. each person maintains a list of their bids as you described, and the program analyses it each night. When it finds a "loop" it notifies all of the participants who must all agree to make the trade official.
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Ben Skellett
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Friendless wrote:
gmcnish wrote:
Or are you thinking the trade list would no longer be for individual games but would become
I would pay x$ for this, y for that...
I want to get a$ for this, b for that
I'm willing to throw in +/- d$
Surprise me!


Yes, exactly. I intend to write up a spec mathematically so I can understand what the problem is, then think about how to code it efficiently. I also wonder whether a trade event is needed at all, or whether we could make it a continuous process, i.e. each person maintains a list of their bids as you described, and the program analyses it each night. When it finds a "loop" it notifies all of the participants who must all agree to make the trade official.


I look forward to seeing the specifications. At the moment it sounds like a simultaneous blind auction that could have unintended consequences, such as a participant ending up paying $a + $b + $c for games & receiving nothing if their games don't sell. (I presume the reverse situation wouldn't be as bad but maybe not & maybe purchasing all those games is fine or maybe there's a threshold to which purchasing is acceptable? Actually that's no different that the current algorithm with the spend limit is it?)

The "continuous process" might be better since you would know that you're receiving $X for your game(s) so you can now offer that for a game that you want.

You've already done great things with the cash in the maths trade so I'm keen to see what you're proposing, though I think it might just end up like the marketplace (just normal buying & selling of games) with a specific window of trading.

 
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nnf1 wrote:
Unhalfbricking wrote:
Friendless wrote:
Now that's an interesting idea... if people could give their games cash-equivalent values, we wouldn't be constrained to match 1 item to 1 item...


It would be much easier to calculate cash equivalent with receiver/buyer pays postage! Without it, a nightmare.


You just had to open up that can of worms didn't you.

When all you have is a can opener...
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John Farrell
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Let's see if I can write a quick example.

Friendless soblue has Funkenschlag, which he values at $40.
He wants Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Gulo Gulo, which he also values at $20.

Ben angry has Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Babel which he values at $10.
He wants Funkenschlag, which he values at $30.

Gregor shake has Gulo Gulo, which he values at $10.
He wants Babel which he values at $20.

Friendless soblue will not trade Funkenschlag for Bootleggers, as he thinks he's getting ripped off, although Ben angry thinks it's a fair trade.

... the program whirs ...
... the offer is submitted to the participants, who agree ...

Friendless soblue sends Funkenschlag to Ben angry, and receives Bootleggers and Gulo Gulo. Friendless soblue thinks he has spent $40 to get $40.

Ben angry sends Bootleggers to Friendless soblue and Babel to Gregor shake, and receives Funkenschlag. Ben angry thinks he has spent $30 to get $30.

Gregor shake sends Gulo Gulo to Friendless soblue and receives Babel. Gregor shake thinks he has spent $10 to get $20.

Everyone's happy.
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Ben Skellett
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Friendless wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
If only there were a way to offer multiple games for one other. There isn't, is there?


If we can ever figure out how to work it mathematically, there would be, but I don't know how to handle branches in loops :-).


John,

Wouldn't it be somewhat similar to how dummy items are created to deal with duplicates?

Instead of having the dummy stand for game A or B, create a new type of dummy that represents game A and B.

Want lists would get complicated since the receiver would have to specify that they wanted exactly game A and B for their game (game C) while the sender would have to specify that they would be willing to trade game A and B for a certain game (could be game D if the loop involves more than 2 people) but it should work if the lists are set up correctly.

What am I missing? Is such a dummy (representing a group of games) difficult to deal with? If such a match is found then all games in the group would have to be removed from the set of available items, is that a problem?

The main issue I can see is that I think it's quite unlikely that such specific matches (for a group of games owned by one person) would exist in people's want lists.

Regarding branches in loops: it isn't possible for a person to send a single game to multiple people so I presume you're thinking about group-for-group trades. For example, I would receive games A & B (from different people) for my games C & D (that I send to different people). I think that's just handled better as two separate trades. Would anyone have a want list of (A&B) for (C&D) instead of just (A or B) for C and (A or B) for D?
 
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Ben Skellett
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Friendless wrote:
Let's see if I can write a quick example.

Friendless soblue has Funkenschlag, which he values at $40.
He wants Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Gulo Gulo, which he also values at $20.

Ben angry has Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Babel which he values at $10.
He wants Funkenschlag, which he values at $30.

Gregor shake has Gulo Gulo, which he values at $10.
He wants Babel which he values at $20.

Friendless soblue will not trade Funkenschlag for Bootleggers, as he thinks he's getting ripped off, although Ben angry thinks it's a fair trade.

... the program whirs ...
... the offer is submitted to the participants, who agree ...

Friendless soblue sends Funkenschlag to Ben angry, and receives Bootleggers and Gulo Gulo. Friendless soblue thinks he has spent $40 to get $40.

Ben angry sends Bootleggers to Friendless soblue and Babel to Gregor shake, and receives Funkenschlag. Ben angry thinks he has spent $30 to get $30.

Gregor shake sends Gulo Gulo to Friendless soblue and receives Babel. Gregor shake thinks he has spent $10 to get $20.

Everyone's happy.


Nice.

So people's "want lists" just have two sets:

Set 1: All the games I want & what I value them at.

Set 2: All the games I'm offering & what I value them at.

Then let the program whir & do its thing.

Postage costs & additional cash to "ease the friction" are additional complications but I definitely think that works.

Edit: It also takes care of the "multiple games for one other" thing in a much better way than what I proposed.

Ben angry



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John Farrell
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Ben, I don't think the example can be broken down into smaller trades. This is sort of a generalisation of the no-risk maths trade algorithm, with the complexity (and complete loss of romance) that we've had to introduce the currency equivalent.

Edit: let's stop cross-communicating now :-).
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Bruce Murphy
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I'd assert that the continuous process optimises for shortest possible loop, which could mean that fewer people get involved in happy trades.

B>
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Friendless wrote:
Gregor shake sends Gulo Gulo to Friendless soblue and receives Babel. Gregor shake thinks he has spent $10 to get $20.

Everyone's happy.

Until Gregorshake realises that he could have sold Gulo Gulo for $20 and bought Babel for $10 - thus ending up with Babel and $10 (instead of just having Babel, which he "wrongly" assessed at twice the value)...

Of course, that's the glory of Maths trades.

devil
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Stephen Allen
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Friendless wrote:
Let's see if I can write a quick example.

Friendless soblue has Funkenschlag, which he values at $40.
He wants Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Gulo Gulo, which he also values at $20.

Ben angry has Bootleggers, which he values at $20, and Babel which he values at $10.
He wants Funkenschlag, which he values at $30.

Gregor shake has Gulo Gulo, which he values at $10.
He wants Babel which he values at $20.

Friendless soblue will not trade Funkenschlag for Bootleggers, as he thinks he's getting ripped off, although Ben angry thinks it's a fair trade.

... the program whirs ...
... the offer is submitted to the participants, who agree ...

Friendless soblue sends Funkenschlag to Ben angry, and receives Bootleggers and Gulo Gulo. Friendless soblue thinks he has spent $40 to get $40.

Ben angry sends Bootleggers to Friendless soblue and Babel to Gregor shake, and receives Funkenschlag. Ben angry thinks he has spent $30 to get $30.

Gregor shake sends Gulo Gulo to Friendless soblue and receives Babel. Gregor shake thinks he has spent $10 to get $20.

Everyone's happy.


So then I value all the item I WANT at $1 and all the items I'm trading at $100 and I'll get a 100:1 trade ratio thumbsup
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