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Jake Fernandez
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Played a game yesterday and a situation came up wherein we weren't sure who'd get control of the ball. I can't remember the names of the cards but this is what happened.

1. My opponent's player got tackled but had the ability DROP-OFF which meant he could pass the ball to a friendly player in the same match-up after getting tackled.
2. However, I had this team upgrade that says something like RESPONSE: If an opposing ball-handler gets tackled, exhaust this card to let the tackler gain control of the ball.

So we're confused.. these are two opposing abilities that decides who would get the ball. How is this resolved?
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Tim Kelly
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dyeyk2000 wrote:
How is this resolved?

Man to man, with warhammers, like REAL BloodBowl players.
TK
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BENAUI Ger
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Dump-off ability let player give the ball to teammate whenever he drop a ball(be tackled down or other effect let him down)

Gouged Eye's team upgrade let the tackler gain the ball if him successfully tackle the opposing ball-handler(wherever the ball is on).

so the answer is the tackler finally gain the ball.
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Torobre Gomez Roiz
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I'm not sure about that...
Quoting from the original BB game, dump-off skill allows you to freeze the turn when your opponent declares the tackle and try a quick pass to a near team mate. Then your opponent can carry on with his tackle.
But at that moment your tackled player is no more the ball carrier.
This let me think dump-off skill takes precedence.
Just my two cents.
 
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Edward Morland
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This however isn't the original Blood Bowl game so as much as they've tried to preserve some of the feel of it we certainly shouldn't be looking at that rulebook to try and answer questions.

My feeling is that the Orcs get the ball. Dump Off only happens when the player would drop the ball which means he has been succesfully tackled so the Orc Skill will trigger no matter what. Thus if Dump Off happens first, the ball is moved to another player and then the Orc ability triggers and they get control of the ball. If the Ork skill happens first the Orc player gets control of the ball in which case the Human Thrower isn't dropping it and so Dump Off can't activate.

See the responses in this thread as well: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/722810/timing-dump-off-vs-or...
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Torobre Gomez Roiz
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randomgerbil wrote:

This however isn't the original Blood Bowl game so as much as they've tried to preserve some of the feel of it we certainly shouldn't be looking at that rulebook to try and answer questions.


Sure you're right, but still some advices can be obtained...

randomgerbil wrote:

My feeling is that the Orcs get the ball. Dump Off only happens when the player would drop the ball which means he has been succesfully tackled so the Orc Skill will trigger no matter what. Thus if Dump Off happens first, the ball is moved to another player and then the Orc ability triggers and they get control of the ball. If the Ork skill happens first the Orc player gets control of the ball in which case the Human Thrower isn't dropping it and so Dump Off can't activate.
See the responses in this thread as well: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/722810/timing-dump-off-vs-or...


I think you can consider two alternatives:
1) Dump-off activates first (tackled means forced to drop the ball). The ball is passed to another player. Then the Orc tackles a player which is not the ball carrier anymore. The Sponsorship can't be triggered.
2) Dump-off doesn't trigger (tackled doesn't mean the ball is dropped yet). The Orc strip the ball. The ball is not dropped at any time. Dump-off can't be triggered at all.

I must admit the "dropped" vs. "taken away" point seems to work.
Secondly, you drop the ball AFTER you've been successfully tackled, so after all maybe you're right.

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Chris Berger
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Glismooth wrote:
1) Dump-off activates first (tackled means forced to drop the ball). The ball is passed to another player. Then the Orc tackles a player which is not the ball carrier anymore. The Sponsorship can't be triggered.

If the tackled player wasn't the ball carrier, then Dump-Off wouldn't have activated. If the Ork tackles the ball carrier, then he has successfully tackled the ball carrier. You can't say "I tackled the ball carrier, so Dump Off activated, then I tackled a non-ball carrier so I can't use the ability" - there's only one tackle. Either it's tackling the ball-carrier or it isn't, not both.
 
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Dean
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I'm just happy to see that Fantasy Flight has continued the grand old Games Workshop tradition of ambiguous rules for these properties!

I'm torn on the resolution. Chris' logic is impeccable. However, it seems to me that (and I readily admit that this is coloured by many, many years of Blood Bowl play) the player should be able to dump off the ball. If *I* designed the game, that would have been my intent. I, of course, did not do so, so my potential intent means less than squat.
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Daniel Hammond
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Meat wrote:
I'm just happy to see that Fantasy Flight has continued the grand old Games Workshop tradition of ambiguous rules for these properties! :)

I'm torn on the resolution. Chris' logic is impeccable. However, it seems to me that (and I readily admit that this is coloured by many, many years of Blood Bowl play) the player should be able to dump off the ball. If *I* designed the game, that would have been my intent. I, of course, did not do so, so my potential intent means less than squat.


My 2 cents if Dump-Off was supposed to work in this situation it would work like the board game. "When a player attempts to tackle this player and he has the ball BEFORE the tackle is resolved he may give the ball to another player on his team." It doesn't work that way, it works when you are dropping a ball, Orcs take the ball before it drops, it is pretty clear to me.
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Chris Berger
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Meat wrote:
I'm torn on the resolution. Chris' logic is impeccable.

Woo-hoo! I don't hear that often enough!

dlhammond wrote:
My 2 cents if Dump-Off was supposed to work in this situation it would work like the board game. "When a player attempts to tackle this player and he has the ball BEFORE the tackle is resolved he may give the ball to another player on his team." It doesn't work that way, it works when you are dropping a ball, Orcs take the ball before it drops, it is pretty clear to me.


Yes, absolutely. One of the things that sticks on me a little bit with this game is that almost everything works the opposite of the way it works in the board game. Guard is on every lineman (I wish!), and is used after the opponent successfully tackles you (instead of making it harder for him to tackle you / easier for you to tackle him). Strip Ball is especially effective against Sure Hands (instead of Sure Hands being especially effective against Strip Ball). Dodge is only useful against Tackle (as opposed to Tackle being only useful against Dodge). Piling On works like Frenzy, and Frenzy sort of works like Piling On. Pass isn't used for Passing. Throw Teammate doesn't let them take the ball with them. Fend is completely unlike anything in the board game, and Stand Firm is totally different and only useful for a ball carrier.

Don't get me wrong, I like this game, but I think that thinking of anything in terms of the board game rules is going to lead to confusion because almost nothing at all in this game works like the board game.
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Jake Fernandez
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Haha wow. Quite the debate on this one. I'm somehow glad I'm not alone. Haha.

After reading through it though, I also now think the Orcs should have gotten the ball. Still a very thin argument though. So can still change.
 
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Ken H.
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arkayn wrote:
You can't say "I tackled the ball carrier, so Dump Off activated, then I tackled a non-ball carrier so I can't use the ability" - there's only one tackle. Either it's tackling the ball-carrier or it isn't, not both.


I think you can say that. Being the ball carrier is just a property of the player you are tackling. Why can't that property change during the tackle? In other words, at the start of the tackle, my target is a guy who happens to be the ball carrier. By the end of the tackle, it's still the same target, but he is no longer the ball carrier.

At any rate, it seems there is no clear answer to be gleaned by parsing the text. My preference would be that Dump Off happens right before or during the tackle, so the Orcs would not get the ball. Basically, I'd read it as: (1) a tackle usually causes a ball drop, (2) Dump Off allows a safe pass when the ball carrier "would" drop the ball (per the rule book -- not sure of the wording on the card), (3) Orc Sponsorship gets the ball if it was dropped.

 
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Daniel Hammond
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Rubric wrote:
(3) Orc Sponsorship gets the ball if it was dropped.



It doesn't say that, it says you get the ball if you tackle the ball carrier. So you tackle him, your card activates.
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Gary Cormier
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The rules say each ability must be completed before the next ability is used.

During a successful tackle, if the ball is held, it gets dropped and placed at midfield. That allows dump off to activate. But for dump off to activate, the ball carrier must have been successfully tackled.

Since the ball carrier was successfully tackled, at the end of the tackle Orcidas can be activated to take the ball, regardless of where it ended up.

This really isn't *that* much different than the human blitzer ability (a double pass icon would have the same effect as 'take control of the ball') - a human blitzer that tackles ANY opposing player moves the ball to midfield or takes it already if it's at midfield.

It's also a team upgrade, and those are supposed to be a bit more powerful than your standard upgrades (unless your dwarves of course.. lol).



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Jake Fernandez
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The_Finn wrote:
The rules say each ability must be completed before the next ability is used.


I'm not sure, doesn't this refer to the card icon abilities being resolved from left to right and not the card text abilities from upgrades and players?
 
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Gary Cormier
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dyeyk2000 wrote:
The_Finn wrote:
The rules say each ability must be completed before the next ability is used.


I'm not sure, doesn't this refer to the card icon abilities being resolved from left to right and not the card text abilities from upgrades and players?


Actually, you're right. It's in the section on skills (Tackling, Cheating, etc)... but it doesn't change the way the ability works.. Dump Off *can't* activate unless the ball carrier was successfully tackled, and when the ball carrier is successfully tackled the Orc player can take the ball with Orcidas.
 
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Dean
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I've checked the rules book and the card. It's still in the wonderful GW tradition of ambiguous rules.

Option 1:

I'm Orcs and tackle the ball carrier. Since the tackle was successful, I get the ball before the defender can activate Sure Hands.

Option 2:

My player has the ball and is tacked. Being successfully tacked, he goes to the Downed state. In a downed state he drops the ball. Since he drops the ball, he can use Dump Off before the Orcs can play Sponsorship. Since the tackled player no longer has the ball, Sponsorship does not apply.

Or to put it another way, if my player is tackled, I need to follow through all the steps of being tacked before anything else can happen. That includes moving to a downed position and dropping the ball (and all that this entails). After that is all done, reactions are allowed.

It's using the same logic, just starting from a different perspective.

I don't think there's a clear answer from the rules. I suggest falling back to another time-honoured GW tradition -- when the rules aren't clear and you can't decide among yourselves which interpretation to use, roll High / Low on a d6, accept the result, and continue playing.
 
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BRIIIIIIAAAAN
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Chris Berger
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Meat wrote:
My player has the ball and is tacked. Being successfully tacked, he goes to the Downed state. In a downed state he drops the ball. Since he drops the ball, he can use Dump Off before the Orcs can play Sponsorship. Since the tackled player no longer has the ball, Sponsorship does not apply.


This is what I dispute. I believe the wording of the Sponsorship says that it activates after you tackle the ball carrier. So if that sequence is accurate, you still tackled the ball carrier, so it could still activate. (Dump Off, if it worked like it does in the minis game, would prevent you from tackling the ball carrier. But in the card game, it only activates after you successfully tackle the ball carrier.)
 
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Dean
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Not quite. Dump Off activates when you would drop the ball.

Dropping the ball is part of being tackled. It happens *as* you are being tackled, not *after*. After the ball is dropped (or dumped off), the tackle is finished.

Did you successfully tackle the ball carrier? Maybe. He was the ball carrier when the action started, but he might not be the ball carrier when all is resolved.

It's amazingly, wonderfully ambiguous. GW couldn't have done better.
 
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Gary Cormier
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Meat wrote:
Not quite. Dump Off activates when you would drop the ball.

Dropping the ball is part of being tackled. It happens *as* you are being tackled, not *after*. After the ball is dropped (or dumped off), the tackle is finished.

Did you successfully tackle the ball carrier? Maybe. He was the ball carrier when the action started, but he might not be the ball carrier when all is resolved.

It's amazingly, wonderfully ambiguous. GW couldn't have done better.


The target has the ball. The moment he goes down it's a successful tackle - the tackle isn't finished, but it *is* successful. And it was against the ball carrier.. if he wasn't the ball carrier, he couldn't dump off.

Orcidas doesn't say take the ball from the downed player.. it just says take the ball.

This isn't much different than the human blitzer. If he successfully tackles ANYONE, the ball moves one step towards him. Even if the ball is dumped off, it's still going to end up at midfield. It isn't necessarily logical, but it's the rule for the blitzer.

Orcidas is a team upgrade - they're supposed to be potent (unless your Dwarves... lol). Playing Orcidas that dump off can't stop it doesn't put into an overpowered position... there are still other team upgrades that put Orcidas to shame in their utility.
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Dean
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The_Finn wrote:
Orcidas doesn't say take the ball from the downed player.. it just says take the ball.

Correct. If the tacked player is the "ball carrier". The question is, "is the ball carrier WHEN?" Does he need to be the ball carrier throughout the entire action? If his ball carrier state changes mid action, does his past ball carrier status still count?

I see no clear resolution in the rules. Without a FAQ this is very much open to interpretation.

Quote:
This isn't much different than the human blitzer.

Except that it is completely different from the blitzer, in that the blitzer doesn't specify tackling the ball carrier.

Quote:
Orcidas is a team upgrade - they're supposed to be potent (unless your Dwarves... lol).

Assuming facts not in evidence (to quote Law and Order. Bhump Bhump!) And your statement that Dwarven upgrades are somehow inferior to others only goes to show that not all upgrades are meant to be potent. How can you know that this upgrade isn't one of the weaker ones?

Like I said, it's ambiguous. Both sides can be argued convincingly. It's SO much like earlier rules of Blood Bowl that I'm almost certain that it was done on purpose!
 
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John Sinodinos
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After looking over this thread I felt compelled to filter through the rule book with a fine toothed comb -and guess what I found lurking at the top of page 16...?
Quote:
PLAYER CARD ABILITIES ...If 2 abilities occur during the same phase, resolve them in turn order starting with the manager who currently holds the gold coin.

So if you take this rule into consideration when the Dump Off ability meets the Gouged Eye upgrade; it would mean that the reaction ability of whichever manager is closer to the gold coin takes precedence. -Right?
Wrong. Because then, when looking at the paragraph below I see this...

Quote:
UPGRADE CARD ABILITIES ...If 2 response abilities contradict each other, the last used response takes effect and the previously used response is ignored.

Maaaan, even with 10 games under my belt I'm so confused cry

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