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BattleLore» Forums » General

Subject: Going out of print? rss

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Todd
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Someone on BGG said this game may be dieing off in another post, I asked a question in the memoir 44 forum here and was told this,

"Harrelson wrote:

BattleLore
Commands & Colors: Ancients
Commands & Colors: Napoleonics


Pretty much in ascending levels of difficulty as well. BattleLore is showing signs of disappearing. If you think you might have interest in medieval or fantasy, buy the game and any expansions as soon as you can. "


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/731356/other-games-with-...

I was thinking of getting the game but don't want to if its going out of print and could not get expansions.
 
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Brad Miller
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It's already out of print and has been for quite some time, (at least in terms of the original DoW release). FFG is going to re-release it, but that version isn't going to be the same.
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Todd
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Windopaene wrote:
It's already out of print and has been for quite some time, (at least in terms of the original DoW release). FFG is going to re-release it, but that version isn't going to be the same.

How will it differ? and do you think it will be cheaper?
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Jim Van Verth
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FFG has not announced anything regarding a re-release, so there's nothing to know.
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Michael Wheal
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FFG 'MAY' re-release it. Featuring heavily in the FFG winter sale is never a good thing for a game.

If you decide to jump in and buy it.. head over to the FFG sale page and grab as many of the expansions as you can afford / get.

Miniature Market had / has a selection - other copies are scattered around, with varying levels of rarity.

An FFG remake will contain less 'stuff'. Probably losing the dwarves and goblins (?) and maybe fewer tiles and cards. Of course, Battles of Westeros scratches the FFG Medieval battle itch, so it would make some sense for BL to contain 'fantasy'.

So, it will probably be cheaper, but contain less.

BL is a great game, but, if I was starting out now, with my collecting OCD, I'd pass, as getting it all would be too difficult. Yes, you could just get the base set and any expansions that grab your eye, but not having others, other annoy me..


Something else you might want to check out is Hold The Line, in addition to the others on your list.

For a Battlelore (inspired / copied) game that is currently supported - take a look at Battles Of Westeros, but be aware there are some major differences brtween it, and BL, and that talking about it, might inflame 'older' BL players

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Rob D
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Windopaene wrote:
It's already out of print and has been for quite some time, (at least in terms of the original DoW release). FFG is going to re-release it, but that version isn't going to be the same.


Not necessarily true. Fantasy Flight has made no announcement for any kind of re-release. A lot of the speculation is that FFG acquired the license just to paste its name onto Battle of Westeros and they have no intention of doing anything further with Battlelore itself. Copies still show up in Geekbay auctions pretty regularly and the prices haven't gone totally insane yet, so it's worth keeping an eye out there if you're really interested.
 
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Ben Boersma
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Not going to get into this discussion as the dead horse has been flogged for a while now with no sign of any news (by me and others).

However, I will say that if you love Fantasy/Medieval stuff, grab as much of Battlelore as you can now.
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Todd
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Boromir_and_Kermit wrote:
Not going to get into this discussion as the dead horse has been flogged for a while now with no sign of any news (by me and others).

However, I will say that if you love Fantasy/Medieval stuff, grab as much of Battlelore as you can now.


Oh I did not know this was a popular subject, sorry, I just found an intrest in the game the other day.
 
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Ben Boersma
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Its not a problem mate and I wasn't calling you on anything Todd. I have been vocal about wanting to hear more about Battlelore's future and figured that I'd give everyone a break. No need to apologise at all Todd.

I think you'll love the game.
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Andreas Krüger
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Note that you do not really need many expansions. Expansions are included into the game either by scenarios (a small number of scenarios comes with each expansion) or by using the Call to Arms expansion with so called Specialists. A specialist is just an expansion unit, and each side may pick two. So, with Call to Arms and a few expansions you should be able to play the game very well.
 
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Phil McDonald
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If you get the base set and the call to arms expansion it is infinitely replayable... everything else is just uneccessary candifloss, though personally I also like the Hundred years war expansion.

The base set alone is remarkably 'complete' as a game.
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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Since you haven't read abouit it, the short version is that DoW got a printer that made the base game for a far lower price than they normally should have (for the business) and as prices for plastics and shipping skyrocketed, DoW did not apparently thinkthey could reprint and make enough of a profit. FFG purchased the rights and all unsold product from them and found that the oil and production prices were so high that even with their higher printing runs, the base game would have to retail for $150 (a direct quoted price from Christian of FFG), and they are currently still trying to figure out what to do with the game.

Obviously, the complication is how to package the base game in a way that is functional at a decent price point, but also balance that people will want to play the game with the miniatures and not another game using piles of tokens.

Depending on how it turns out, I suspect if anyone does reprint the game, the likely outcome may be a single miniature per hex with cardboard tokens representing the rest of the unit as "health". If they can get the price down enough to be tolerable, of course.
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Phil McDonald
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Seems like they think people must be gullible to swallow that shake
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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You should read back and see what Eric from DoW said. Even they said the price of the original was too low and a reprint was impossible.

Seems like you should also read up on how much a small price change has bigg effects on pricing. Most consumers have no idea how a $1 difference in manufacturing costs translates to a $5+ MSRP bump and the print run costs have now jumped over $3000 extra (for a small print run) that has to be budgeted for. Gullibility has nothing to do with it, just facts.
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Phil McDonald
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I'm not saying there wasn't a problem... I have over 20 years experience as a senior purchasing professional. I'm just saying that the scale of the problem has been over-egged to suit the marketing direction of the company. Quotes of $150 remove all credibility from the statement.

YOU shouldn't believe everything you read.
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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Considering the fact that Eric basically agreed with FFG's assessment of the potential MSRP of reprinting it, perhaps you should also consider that the boardgane market is different than your field of expertise.

Remember this: The original retail price was $80. The price was far below what it should have cost, which I believe estimates are that it should have been between $100-120 given the true market costs of the materials and printing. Since FFG purchased the rights several years later, and costs have spiraled up even more, and given the changes in MSRP to cover the increases ($6/copy increase in manufacturing and shipping fees = ~$30 msrp change), can you truly say it has no credibility?
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Phil McDonald
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YES.

Don't lose sight of the fact that we are talking of a cardboard box containing more printed cardboard and moulded plastic, produced in the cheapest place in the world for sourcing that kind of material.

The most expensive part of production is creating the bespoke injection moulds for the miniatures. The Game Company would have either Amortised the cost of those into the unit price of the game, or paid for them outright OR (and this would be unlikely), remained in the ownership of the manufacturer. Whatever the case, it would be in no-ones interest to leave these moulds idle unless the game was a dog.

I think in our enthusiasm for our shared hobby we sometimes overlook the REAL cost of things.

Go out and look what else you can buy for $150 and tell me...'where's the meat'?

A boardgame costing $5 in raw materials retails for $50. If the cost of raw materials should DOUBLE, that is another $5. It does NOT increase the costs of Marketing, shipping, staff etc.

What % of retail price do you think FF are paying for the game do you think?

My experience in several market sectors informs me that in discretionary markets (non-food predominantly or elecrical) profit margins are HIGH. The cost of the actual item being a minimal part of the equation.
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Todd
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I think they should just keep it looking nice, video games cost $60 on avarage when new and is just a disk and box, I think that many pieces is worth it, but I would buy it even if it was cardboard tokens.
 
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Don Whitney
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I'm wondering why others are so sure FFG is soon to discontinue the Battlelore product? I took an absense from the game for just over a year and since then Bearded Brave and Code of Chivalry have been released. That doesn't seem to me be a product that the publisher is abandoning. Admittedly though, I haven't been following it as closely as others in the past year. Battelore has been out for 5 years and there's 15 different expansion for it. Do the math, that equates to an expansion every 4 months - 3/year! Again, that doesn't seem to me to be product that the publishers are uneasy about.Is it GMT's retreat from C&C that have made many uneasy about this game?

I'm also skeptical of the high production cost numbers that have been bantered about for some years now. I don't see DoW running away from Memoir 44 production, and it ships with just 35 less figures than BL, yet retails for almost 1/2 the cost. Sure there's far less diversity amongst the figures in it, but as was pointed out the initial mold cost is what makes figure production costly. I guess you could contrast Battle of Westeros with about 60% of the amount of components in Battlelore, but at least in my neck of the woods its sells for 66% of the cost of a battlelore set, so it doesn't seem to that much out of line with base Battlelore pricing. Admittedly I haven't peeked in a BoW set, so maybe the difference is greater than what the contents would suggest.
 
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Andreas Krüger
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IIRC the molds were lost. So, to reprint the game, new molds must be made. Production costs (of any game) can only be covered if a reasonable number of games is sold. So the question for FFG is: How many people will buy BattleLore the Reprint?

If a reasonable percentage of Battlelore owners buys an expansion, this could easily be more pieces sold than a new base game could ever reach. And the production and handling of a small box of some miniatures and cards is much cheaper than making a new box.

Besides, Memoir 44 seems to be a hit. (I have even seen it in a game store in Germany. This is worth mentioning because WW2 is not something you can make light entertainment of here in Germany. Obviously, times have changed and now you can sell a WW2 game which would have been hidden in the darkest corner of a game store 5 years ago.) So, if the decision must be made to commit resources to either a new Battlelore base set or a new Memoir 44 expansion, FFG may have good reasons to disappoint Battlelore fans.

Edit: Oops, Memoir is still at DOW. blush Mhh... this makes Memoir a dangerous competitor, then.

On the other hand, I think that Battlelore has still a lot of expansion potential, especially something like a campaign system is highly desired. New lore cards would also be relatively easy to make (although to achieve perfect color matches, the old lore decks would have to be included as well). The guest seat of the war counsel is also not much in use (except for retired heroes, I think). Many players want new races. And Call to Arms could certainly be improved to incorporate expansions in a better way. Which would sell more expansions.

I do not think the reprint of the base game is necessary to keep BL interesting. I mean, I would still play Agricola even if it would be out of print. It is a playable game even if you own "only" the base game.

Of course, I hope for expansions, but they must come up with something better than an expensive bag of miniatures. And whatever they come up with, it should better help with integration of expansions, because for a game that was marketed as expansion-heavy, the bumps and inconsistencies with mixing expansions are a little bit... unexpected.
 
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Don Whitney
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red black wrote:
I still believe that FFG already came out with second edition Battlelore.. they called it, Battles of Westeros a Battlelore Game.


I don't actually see BoW as a long term Battlelore product line for FFG. Mostly because they don't own the rights to the intellectual property and those gaming rights are currently shared with another company - Green Ronin who produces the Song of Fire & Ice (1 of the top 5 selling PnP RPGs) products. From what I've read, Richard Borg still retains IP rights for Battlelore, but there's a big differnce between negotiating with an individual and a large corporate concern. No doubt FFG will hold the Game of Thrones license for some time to come, but its not a slam-dunk that they'll have it forever. Many gaming fans felt comfortable and secure with Wizard ofthe Coast's righs to the Star Wars lincense, but look where that went. On the other hand, if they abandon the Battlelore product line they'll lose all those fans in the current install base that haven't transitioned to BoW.
 
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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Phil, we will agree to disagree, however, I will ask that you look at the actual breakdown of costs in boardgame publishing vs the other markets you are trying to pattern this to. You may be surprised at how little money is made for a given title because of hidden costs that aren't visible to the consumer. The board game design forum of late has plenty of discussions about the extremely high costs and low margins here. Cae in point: The MSRP is for the retailer. The publisher only gets 40-50% of that generally (and often less if a distributor is used to handle the porducts) and all shipping is paid from the "high" profit margins you speak of.
 
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Don Whitney
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
So, if the decision must be made to commit resources to either a new Battlelore base set or a new Memoir 44 expansion, FFG may have good reasons to disappoint Battlelore fans.

Last time I looked Days of Wonder are still the producers of Memoir 44. I do agree with what you're saying though. Long term there's more risk in FFG not putting out additional Battlelore expansions, and they'd probably be profittable. No reprints of the base game is the real concern, but now that FFG has BoW under their belt I think it's closer to possibly happenning.
 
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Phil McDonald
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klz_fc wrote:
Phil, we will agree to disagree, however, I will ask that you look at the actual breakdown of costs in boardgame publishing vs the other markets you are trying to pattern this to. You may be surprised at how little money is made for a given title because of hidden costs that aren't visible to the consumer. The board game design forum of late has plenty of discussions about the extremely high costs and low margins here. Cae in point: The MSRP is for the retailer. The publisher only gets 40-50% of that generally (and often less if a distributor is used to handle the porducts) and all shipping is paid from the "high" profit margins you speak of.


I think you misunderstand me.

As I have said in another thread a while ago, it is entirely possible for a games company to enjoy a high margin on a product and yet make no cash out of it.

It depends how a company apportions its costs and as always, sales volume is the key.

Businesses have become wedded to percentage profit margins. As any housewife knows, you can't pay your bills with percentages, cash profit should be the driver, NOT percentage!

How many times have you seen a new product, say in your supermarket, that is launched successfully and sales rise, so it is given more space and it's sales rise further and then the supermarket thinks KERCHING! and whack the price up, and then sales decline so it is given less space and sales decline further and then they decide it's a niche product that demands a price premium an d whack the price up further, shortly after to discontinue this awful slow-seller. Now I ask you is this product really a dog, or has the supermarket killed the golden goose?

This story happens in many retail markets with monotonous regularity as Businesses choose to (or are driven to) chase PERCENTAGE margins, rather than persuing maximum profit at the meeting of optimum retail price and volume.

What's a Grecian Urn? about 43% ninja
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Andreas Krüger
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kronovan wrote:

Last time I looked Days of Wonder are still the producers of Memoir 44.


Oops, thanks for the kind correction. Edited my post.
 
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