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Subject: Cash over content rss

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Zoe M
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It makes me sad to see how cash is valued so much more than other contributions to the site, at least as measured by GeekGold rewards. I can spend an hour writing a good, thoughtful review and get maybe 3 GG in return. Or I can donate $15 and get 120 GG. At this rate, it would take me a full work week of review-writing (40 hours x 3 GG/hour) to get the same GG as I would for the cash donation. And needless to say, I expect a week of work to pay more than $15.

User-submitted content is at the core of this site, so it's discouraging to see that it's considered pretty much worthless.
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William Boykin
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I guess its hard for Aldie to eat a boardgame review.

whistle

Darilian
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Zoe M
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Yeah, cash is important. But I don't think it's the Best Contribution Ever. The site wouldn't be able to pull in the donation money if it weren't for the valuable content.
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William Boykin
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If everyone just gave content, Aldie wouldn't be able to keep the site up, for lack of liquidity.

While I have my doubts as to the long term viability of a donation based business model, the fact remains- donations are a key source of revenue for the site. As a result, it makes sense to have the donations be the key source for getting 'geek gold'.

Darilian
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Zoe M
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I'm not saying everyone should only give content, just that there should be some reasonable sense of proportion.

It seems like they've become lazy and given up on trying to make GG meaningful; it's easy to throw it out as a big reward because it doesn't cost them anything, but with enough inflation people will just stop caring. I certainly don't think Folding@Home is a major part of their business model....
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Matthew M
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I agree with the sentiment that content should be valued more, but I don't agree that geekgold should be seen as the way to measure what is valued more.

Geekgold awards for content are a carryover from when we first implemented the geekgold feature without having any real sense of what it would be used for or how popular it would become. How the community has embraced geekgold has driven a lot of changes, including what it's used for and it's perceived "worth". The awards given out for contributions has never been changed to keep up with that, however.

Personally, I don't think we need to incentivize contributing content at this point. The userbase is so robust on the BGG side that the content wouldn't stop flowing if we removed geekgold awards entirely. In fact, we often see people requesting that we remove geekgold awards for contributions to discourage what some see as "geekgold farming" with mass image submissions.

We give other awards for content submission now. We've got a series of microbadges that recognize different levels of contributions in each content area and I think those are a much better symbol of value than geekgold is. Users also thumb and give tips (sometimes very generous tips) to top quality content.

At the same time, we want new users to have a way to forge their Geek identity through purchase of an avatar and geekbadges and microbadges more quickly. If a new user cares enough about this community to help support it financially, then I absolutely want them to be able to personalize their avatar blocks. I think giving out a once-a-year bonus to Patrons is a great way to accomplish that.

Geekgold used to be hard to get. But that's not fun. Aldie wants geekgold to be fun, so we don't mind spreading it out (and we've got ideas for ways to rake it back in to go along with that). I agree that the geekgold awards for content submission is out of whack with current geekgold "rates". However I'd lobby for divorcing content contribution from geekgold rewards entirely as the rewards aren't really needed and increasing those rates would likely incentivize flooding the contribution queues with average work from people who want an easy way to cash in.

-MMM

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Moshe Callen
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One needs both of course. If the complaint has a basis, I'd say it's the relative valuation.

Namely, I'm usually relatively poor in GG because other than donations of it to me, I get mine mostly from content. I've been going through financial difficulties the last couple of years or so. Yet I like to think I contribute a lot to the site.

At the same time, Darilian's argument is also perfectly correct. The only thing I could suggest is maybe something like the following:

1. In most respects, keep the current system.
2. Have the current levels for GG from reviews, sessions reports, etc., as the default BUT say have increased levels for the first ten reviews, session reports, etc. of a game. E.g., if an average picture uploaded in worth 3 GG, then the first 5 of 10 uploaded could be worth 30 GG as an incentive to get content on every game page.

EDIT:
Those first contributions would however need stricter quality control as well.
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William Boykin
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The only value to Geekgold is the extent to which it encourages people to want to donate actual real money to Aldie, by being a fun little 'game within the site', as Matt points out.

It serves absolutely no other purpose than that.

Personally, I think that rewarding 'super content' with some sort of widget, like a microbadge that can't be obtained any other way, is a great way to go.

Darilian
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Zoe M
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Thanks for that explanation, Octavian! That makes a lot of sense. I guess I was clinging to the old idea that GG should be valuable, and I should just get over it and let it be fun.

I'd still like to see the various GG rewards adjusted to make sense in the current system, though. I actually agree that images are worth too much GG; they could probably be reduced to give 0.1 each, or something along those lines. The GG for reviews, however, could be significantly increased. There's still something to be said for acknowledging the quality of a review.

I do like the microbadge rewards, but my concern there is that they tend just to reward quantity over quality. Even though a review or session report has to meet minimal GeekMod standards, I think I could easily get through a bunch of mediocre ones if I were just trying to get the reward, and that makes me value the reward less. I'd like to see thumb-based microbadges for different sorts of contributions, instead of just for site-wide thumbs or for demonstrating the minimal acceptable quality. It would mean something if there were levels within levels for the reviewer badges: not just writing 5 reviews, but writing 5 reviews that got at least 5 thumbs each, then 50 thumbs each, then 100 thumbs each (for example); and so on.
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Moshe Callen
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I think though making donations the only way to get GG and hence avatars, microbadges, etc., would strongly go against the idea of the site being free for all to use.
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Boaty McBoatface
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If you do not get a decent return on your investment why would many user donate?
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Zoe M
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Quote:
If you do not get a decent return on your investment why would many user donate?


That's a pretty depressing thought. Because they like the site and want to support it, maybe?

The amount given out has gone way beyond "decent", anyway. To the extent that the currency is extremely devalued. I'd choose an investment that paid out a moderate amount of USD over one that paid out a massive amount of Zimbabwean dollars, any day.

(I'm trying to remember that it's now about fun rather than value... but it hasn't quite sunk in )
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Lance
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Octavian wrote:

We give other awards for content submission now. We've got a series of microbadges that recognize different levels of contributions in each content area and I think those are a much better symbol of value than geekgold is.


So we should see video reviews counting towards the reviewer microbadge real soon then, because they are a better symbol of appreciation for making a video?

After all, they only get a flat 1 GG as it is right now as well - kind of "the worst of both worlds".
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Matthew M
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UndeadViking wrote:
Octavian wrote:

We give other awards for content submission now. We've got a series of microbadges that recognize different levels of contributions in each content area and I think those are a much better symbol of value than geekgold is.


So we should see video reviews counting towards the reviewer microbadge real soon then, because they are a better symbol of appreciation for making a video?

After all, they only get a flat 1 GG as it is right now as well - kind of "the worst of both worlds".


I definitely want to see that fixed. The problem right now is that there is no guarantee that the person who posted the video is the same as the person who made it. I think we can fix that by making a separate "attribution" for video uploads to show that a different user made the video than posted it, and then we can offer awards based on the attributions.

New features are on hold until the UI redesign is complete, however. But it's definitely on my lobbying-for list.
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Scott Alden
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Octavian wrote:
UndeadViking wrote:
Octavian wrote:

We give other awards for content submission now. We've got a series of microbadges that recognize different levels of contributions in each content area and I think those are a much better symbol of value than geekgold is.


So we should see video reviews counting towards the reviewer microbadge real soon then, because they are a better symbol of appreciation for making a video?

After all, they only get a flat 1 GG as it is right now as well - kind of "the worst of both worlds".


I definitely want to see that fixed. The problem right now is that there is no guarantee that the person who posted the video is the same as the person who made it. I think we can fix that by making a separate "attribution" for video uploads to show that a different user made the video than posted it, and then we can offer awards based on the attributions.

New features are on hold until the UI redesign is complete, however. But it's definitely on my lobbying-for list.


I concur - this is a high priority update we need to do.
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Matthew M
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whac3 wrote:
I think though making donations the only way to get GG and hence avatars, microbadges, etc., would strongly go against the idea of the site being free for all to use.


That's an excellent point and is the strongest argument for either keeping gg awards for content or developing other methods of acquiring it like GeekMod.

-MMM
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The Steak Fairy
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Hey, I think I hear Osama bin Laden's body muttering in the other thread. What's that, Osama bin corpse? You want GeekAnswers to be tippable asap? Okay, fella, you just lie there and some day it will happen.
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Tom Vasel
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Aldie wrote:
Octavian wrote:
UndeadViking wrote:
Octavian wrote:

We give other awards for content submission now. We've got a series of microbadges that recognize different levels of contributions in each content area and I think those are a much better symbol of value than geekgold is.


So we should see video reviews counting towards the reviewer microbadge real soon then, because they are a better symbol of appreciation for making a video?

After all, they only get a flat 1 GG as it is right now as well - kind of "the worst of both worlds".


I definitely want to see that fixed. The problem right now is that there is no guarantee that the person who posted the video is the same as the person who made it. I think we can fix that by making a separate "attribution" for video uploads to show that a different user made the video than posted it, and then we can offer awards based on the attributions.

New features are on hold until the UI redesign is complete, however. But it's definitely on my lobbying-for list.


I concur - this is a high priority update we need to do.


I concur also. But I think I concurred two years ago. Still waiting!!!
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Liam
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I'm ok with the current system.

I've written 9 reviews, a tiny contribution by the standards of some of the repliers to this thread. Each review took me an age to write. Neither in thumbs nor gg was it worth doing, though I enjoy receiving both.

But it was worth doing, not for the payment given to me but as a way of giving back - giving thanks - to all the excellent contributions that others have made and to be able to feel part of this community. Paying cash for rewards, is far less communal and kind. I enjoy the ritual and will enjoy getting to give two new users avatars but it doesn't feel like giving or getting thanks.

Currently inherent in the system, when it comes to content, is asymmetrical reciprocity. One can take as they wish and give back as they wish and can afford. No one keeps count of how much you have given or taken. The community is based on sharing, where giving's primary reward is the act itself, followed by the subsequent connection with other users. You are not rewarded equally nor fairly in GG because the true currency of BGG pre-dates the site, the currency is meaningful relationships, commonwealth and community.
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The Steak Fairy
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Certain things garner a lot of GeekGold. I've probably made more from snotty remarks in RSP than I've ever made for my cash contributions to the site, and you can see that I've contributed cash for a number of years now....

As to the ROI of my "donations," there's a reason that the money I periodically PayPal over to these lovable knuckleheads is not called an "investment." I donate what I can, as I can, because I can, and because I want to. What do I get in return? The continued operation of the site I love to visit most on the internet.
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Lance
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monkeyhandz wrote:
I'm ok with the current system.

I've written 9 reviews, a tiny contribution by the standards of some of the repliers to this thread. Each review took me an age to write. Neither in thumbs nor gg was it worth doing, though I enjoy receiving both.

But it was worth doing, not for the payment given to me but as a way of giving back - giving thanks - to all the excellent contributions that others have made and to be able to feel part of this community. Paying cash for rewards, is far less communal and kind. I enjoy the ritual and will enjoy getting to give two new users avatars but it doesn't feel like giving or getting thanks.

Currently inherent in the system, when it comes to content, is asymmetrical reciprocity. One can take as they wish and give back as they wish and can afford. No one keeps count of how much you have given or taken. The community is based on sharing, where giving's primary reward is the act itself, followed by the subsequent connection with other users. You are not rewarded equally nor fairly in GG because the true currency of BGG pre-dates the site, the currency is meaningful relationships, commonwealth and community.


I get where you are coming from, and yes it is silly that I am annoyed by the fact that I haven't qualified for the silver and gold review badges even though I have.

But it is something I have earned and I want it, for whatever silly stupid reason I have.

*edit* And as far as GG goes, I don't really care. I have plenty for what I need it for, and I don't see myself running out anytime soon, if ever.
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The Steak Fairy
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Look, could somebody in authority give Lance the microbadges that he's earned, please? It's not like there's an endless parade of people into the Complaints forum requesting stuff like this.
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Matthew M
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MisterCranky wrote:
Look, could somebody in authority give Lance the microbadges that he's earned, please? It's not like there's an endless parade of people into the Complaints forum requesting stuff like this.


STOP MAKING SENSE!
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The Steak Fairy
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I'd have thought he'd have showed up by now to thank the Complaints forum regulars, Aldie, you, and Osama.
 
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John So-And-So
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I can think of another Complain Department regular he might want to thank! Also from now on I call Complaint Department "CDP".
 
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