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Subject: Freedom has arrived in Afghanistan! rss

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J
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"reexamined her case"

So, was she jailed for being raped?

Yes.

Then let her go.
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pronoblem baalberith
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The article fails to mention one part of Gulnaz's case. She appealed her 2-year sentence and on appeal was given a 12-year sentence... if she is released she will have served 2 years. Also, she's still in jail at this moment... no word yet on nuptials, but that will be a somber wedding.


Karzai is good pals with Condaleeza... which was why we installed him. At 53 he will be one of our older puppets. If he's still alive 30 years from now he will be our next Saddam when we return to 'liberate' (kill and rape) the people. Perhaps it will be his heir? He is without children but his wife is 39, who knows...
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True Blue Jon
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We have such a good history of forcing regime change in other countries.
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
[url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/12/jailed-afghan-rape-victim-wins-pardon-after-agreeing-to-marry-attacker.html]

Gulnaz became pregnant as a result of the rape and gave birth in prison.

Boy, I sure am glad we worked so hard to get rid of the Taliban. shake


Not to interrupt your indignation, but would you have allowed her to abort her pregnancy?
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pronoblem baalberith
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bjlillo wrote:
pronoblem wrote:
If he's still alive 30 years from now he will be our next Saddam when we return to 'liberate' (kill and rape) the people.


Does that mean we'll have to marry them?


You cannot marry the dead.
 
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Not to interrupt your indignation, but would you have allowed her to abort her pregnancy?


I'm not sure how murdering an innocent person would help the situation.


Thought so. Just checking.
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Thought so. Just checking.


Since the topic in the OP doesn't seem to be terribly interesting to people, why do you think the child should be punished for the sins of his father? That seems like a rather draconian value set to me.


I don't think an embryo is a child. I also think that it's cruel to force a woman to carry an embryo to term, especially when that embryo is the product of rape.

I recognize that you hold to a different principle -- you see the embryo as a full person/child, and thus you see forcing her to carry it to term as a moral imperative. For my part, I consider that less evil than imprisoning a woman for being raped, but still evil.
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Since the topic in the OP doesn't seem to be terribly interesting to people


FWIW, I do think that the OP is important but not terribly interesting. I've been following oppressive practices towards women in the region for about a decade (and donating to groups that have been working against it). I didn't expect a regime change in Afghanistan to reverse things.
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Tobias Strobe
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Not to interrupt your indignation, but would you have allowed her to abort her pregnancy?


I'm not sure how murdering an innocent person would help the situation.


Yeah, it's not your body, so who gives a shit? Having this woman go through the pain and humiliation of a forced pregnancy is a small price to pay in the pursuit of the unobtainable goal of worldwide moral absolutism.

Now, if we did something insane like raise taxes to pay for school lunch, then it's like some kind of high-tech cyber slavery sort of situation, not something as simple as having to bear the constant reminder of your powerlessness.
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True Blue Jon
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Are you guys seriously turning a thread about disgusting government behavior into a thread about abortion?
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J
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Thanks a lot, Chad. shake
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J
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Ilthuain wrote:
bjlillo wrote:

I'm not sure how murdering an innocent person would help the situation.


Yeah, it's not your body, so who gives a shit?

Amazing that this response got thumbs.

"Hey, I'm going to go out and shoot people with a large gun."

"Who gives a shit as long as you're not shooting me or yourself."
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Chad Ellis
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quozl wrote:
Are you guys seriously turning a thread about disgusting government behavior into a thread about abortion?


My intent was to point out that "barbaric system of rules that imposes unjust harm on women who are raped" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

BJ (rightfully) abhors a regime that imprisons a woman for being raped but would support a regime that forces that woman to bear her rapist's embryo.
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Chad Ellis
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jarredscott78 wrote:
Ilthuain wrote:
bjlillo wrote:

I'm not sure how murdering an innocent person would help the situation.


Yeah, it's not your body, so who gives a shit?

Amazing that this response got thumbs.

"Hey, I'm going to go out and shoot people with a large gun."

"Who gives a shit as long as you're not shooting me or yourself."


Well, I don't like his response but your characterization of it seems way off. He was inferring that the "who cares if it's not your body" attitude was BJ's (which is false and thus why I don't like it), not advocating that attitude.
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
My intent was to point out that "barbaric system of rules that imposes unjust harm on women who are raped" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

BJ (rightfully) abhors a regime that imprisons a woman for being raped but would support a regime that forces that woman to bear her rapist's embryo.


And you would support a regime that punishes the child for the sins of the father. What's your point?


That it's cool that two people who each think the other holds evil beliefs can hang out and game.

Obviously.
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True Blue Jon
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
quozl wrote:
Are you guys seriously turning a thread about disgusting government behavior into a thread about abortion?


My intent was to point out that "barbaric system of rules that imposes unjust harm on women who are raped" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

BJ (rightfully) abhors a regime that imprisons a woman for being raped but would support a regime that forces that woman to bear her rapist's embryo.


Right. You changed the subject from Afghanistan to BJ.
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J
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Chad_Ellis wrote:

Obviously.

Duh.
 
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
That it's cool that two people who each think the other holds evil beliefs can hang out and game.

Obviously.


If I had known you were going to tell people about the salad, that might have turned out differently.


Tough but fair.
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Chad Ellis
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quozl wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
quozl wrote:
Are you guys seriously turning a thread about disgusting government behavior into a thread about abortion?


My intent was to point out that "barbaric system of rules that imposes unjust harm on women who are raped" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

BJ (rightfully) abhors a regime that imprisons a woman for being raped but would support a regime that forces that woman to bear her rapist's embryo.


Right. You changed the subject from Afghanistan to BJ.


I disagree. I think I made a point that was very much on topic. It was only "about" BJ in the sense that since I was making it to him, in response to his OP, I used the Socratic method rather than just stating the point. But, if you'd prefer:

Me, absolutely not talking about BJ wrote:
The Afghans impose a savage penalty on a woman who is raped because they hold a set of evil beliefs that assign paramount moral importance to something that does not merit it. While we agree that they're wrongfully assigning moral import (making it easy to condemn them), it's worth noting that there are many other things that various groups assign paramount moral importance to and for which they are willing to impose other penalties upon the innocent...even women who are raped. One example of this is the belief that a zygote is the moral equivalent of a person; this leads some to conclude that the state should compel a rape victim to carry the resulting pregnancy to term. A perhaps less heinous example is communities that assign such importance to virginity that a woman who is raped becomes deemed unworthy as a wife.


Better?
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Chad Ellis
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bjlillo wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Well, I don't like his response but your characterization of it seems way off. He was inferring that the "who cares if it's not your body" attitude was BJ's (which is false and thus why I don't like it), not advocating that attitude.


Are you sure he wasn't advocating that attitude with his disregard for the person being killed?


Yes.
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True Blue Jon
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No rewording necessary. It just seemed you were taking a shot at BJ's beliefs. Since you said you weren't, I guess you weren't. No harm, no foul.
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I'm baffled by this puppet-Karzai situation. The American leaders never learn?

Equally surprised and saddened by the treatment of rape victims.

And also surprised by the rabid anti-abortion stance of the conservatives in this thread. If your wife was raped and wanted an abortion, you'd insist on her not doing it?

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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Mondainai wrote:
I'm baffled by this puppet-Karzai situation. The American leaders never learn?

Equally surprised and saddened by the treatment of rape victims.

And also surprised by the rabid anti-abortion stance of the conservatives in this thread. If your wife was raped and wanted an abortion, you'd insist on her not doing it?



A great many conservatives believe exceptions are appropriate in the cases of rape, child abuse/incest, or extreme health concerns (ie the mothers life is in jeopardy or the baby will not be viable).

A great many liberals believe that late term or partial birth abortions cross the line and should not be allowed.

Progress will not be made as long as people continue to caricature and demonize any and all opposition to their beliefs. Maybe the gap is still too wide after those concessions, but wouldn't it be great if we could be reasonable?
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quozl wrote:
Are you guys seriously turning a thread about disgusting government behavior into a thread about abortion?


That was Chad's intent all along. Surely this doesn't surprise you?
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bjlillo wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
If your wife was raped and wanted an abortion, you'd insist on her not doing it?


If women went around murdering every child that is a product of them being raped, I wouldn't have one of my nephews. It's not really a hypothetical question.
So you'd insist on her keeping it, even if she wanted to take it away?
 
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