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Subject: BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRONCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS! rss

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Dennis Ku
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They do it again. My heart can't take so many last-second wins. Tied for first in the AFC West baby!!! Who woulda thunk it at 1-4???
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TEBOW > Tebow?
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I love the sound of Tebow haters crying.
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Dennis Ku
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It was his first legit throwing game of the season. Not many passes still, but any time you get 200 yards through the air on just 10 of 15 passing, it's impressive. He completed some nice long throws, putting the ball exactly where his receivers needed them.

Oh, if only Jay Cutler wasn't hurt. I wanted to see the Broncos beat the Bears at full-strength, but I'll take the easier matchup with all the injuries I guess.

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Well, he's doing a great job in putting up the "W's." And that's the only thing that counts.

He seems to be a great kid away from the field also. Why do people want him to fail?
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Orangemoose wrote:
Why do people want him to fail?


Haters gonna hate?
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futhee wrote:
They do it again. My heart can't take so many last-second wins. Tied for first in the AFC West baby!!! Who woulda thunk it at 1-4???


Actually, tied for first and holding the tie-breaker. . .

Aaron Rodgers would be my No. 1 vote for MVP but Tebow would be on my ballot. Its not best player but most valuable to a team. Tebow is a great story for the NFL and the nation right now. I really like the good hard working person succeeding despite what all the experts say.

>Note - Florida Alum.
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Dennis Ku
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I think people want him to fail because he's so untraditional in his skill set, and more importantly, because he was so high profile in college. Or maybe it's his squeaky-clean image. America isn't used to having flawless heroes; there's almost a cynical desire to find out the dark side to every celebrity.

Or maybe it's because he plays for a great team.

Seriously though - I can't believe how this season has turned around. I definitely didn't see it coming.
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Larry Levy
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After watching the game against the Jets two weeks ago and seeing how poorly Tebow played for the first 55 minutes, I was pretty convinced that the Broncos were winning in spite of him and not because of him. But over the last two weeks, he's averaged over 10 yards per pass, with no interceptions. Stats like that are hard to ignore, so maybe he's for real (and might be a real quarterback) after all.

Orangemoose wrote:
Well, he's doing a great job in putting up the "W's." And that's the only thing that counts.

It really isn't. It's very possible for a team to win with a poor quarterback and for a team to lose despite the QB having a great game. You just have to look at more than wins and losses when evaluating a player. I don't know why so many "experts" are having trouble with that concept.

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He seems to be a great kid away from the field also. Why do people want him to fail?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I was annoyed at how much credit Tebow was getting when it was obvious that the real heroes in Denver's remarkable comeback were the defense, the offensive line, and the running backs. I wasn't rooting for Tebow to fail, just hoping that credit would go where credit was due. However, if he keeps showing this kind of improvement, even the doubters like me will start giving props to the kid, as he will have earned it.

One note of caution: Denver continues to play stiffs. They're winning, yes, but they're barely beating poor to mediocre teams. And the schedule continues to favor them, for at least one more week, as Chicago, which looked like it would destroy the Broncos, now seem inept without Cutler. If Tebow manages to lead Denver to a victory over the Patriots the week after, I think everyone will become a believer, but I don't expect that to come close to happening. A better test may be against a reeling Buffalo team in Buffalo on Week 16. So we'll have to see, but thanks to the schedule, it's not hard to see Denver finishing up 10-6. That would be an amazing turnaround and hopefully everyone will share in the credit assigned for that (including Mr. Tebow).
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As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.
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Orangemoose wrote:
Well, he's doing a great job in putting up the "W's." And that's the only thing that counts.


Larry Levy wrote:
It really isn't. It's very possible for a team to win with a poor quarterback and for a team to lose despite the QB having a great game. You just have to look at more than wins and losses when evaluating a player. I don't know why so many "experts" are having trouble with that concept.


What?!?!?! What else does matter? Seriously? This is the NFL, the ONLY thing that matters is wins. Period end of story. There are no moral victories, there are no everyone gets to play rules, there are no points for being pretty, there are not points for being spectacular, there are not points for racking up amazing stats.

Does Tim Tebow not make stupid mistakes (turnovers) costing his team victory? Check!
Does Tim Tebow give his team a chance to win week in and week out? Check!
Do Tim Tebow's teammates follow his leadership? Check!
Do the Denver Bronco's win football games when Tim Tebow is under center? Check!

Absolutely nothing else matters.

Besides the above 4 things I listed, how else would you evaluate a QB? Just curious.
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LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.


So magic is all you are looking for? Winning does not matter?
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Froggy McFrogface
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Ogsponge wrote:
LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.


So magic is all you are looking for? Winning does not matter?


?? ?? How did you construe that from my post? Calm down!

Yes, winning matters. We haven't done a lot of that in the last 12 seasons.

And yes, if I'm going to invest my valuable time to watch a game (instead of playing one,) then I want some entertainment pay-off.
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LennyS wrote:
Ogsponge wrote:
LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.


So magic is all you are looking for? Winning does not matter?


?? ?? How did you construe that from my post? Calm down!

Yes, winning matters. We haven't done a lot of that in the last 12 seasons.

And yes, if I'm going to invest my valuable time to watch a game (instead of playing one,) then I want some entertainment pay-off.


I guess I did read your statement a bit wrong, my apologies! I am just thinking that if I were a Bronco fan right now I would be pretty excited about the future possibilities!
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Froggy McFrogface
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Ogsponge wrote:
LennyS wrote:
Ogsponge wrote:
LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.


So magic is all you are looking for? Winning does not matter?


?? ?? How did you construe that from my post? Calm down!

Yes, winning matters. We haven't done a lot of that in the last 12 seasons.

And yes, if I'm going to invest my valuable time to watch a game (instead of playing one,) then I want some entertainment pay-off.


I guess I did read your statement a bit wrong, my apologies! I am just thinking that if I were a Bronco fan right now I would be pretty excited about the future possibilities!


It IS exciting! That's exactly what I'm talking about!

(P.S. I grew up a huge Green Bay fan, and suffered through the '70s & '80s when the Pack was the doormat of the NFC Central - their current streak is also very exciting!)
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Ogsponge wrote:
Larry Levy wrote:
It's very possible for a team to win with a poor quarterback and for a team to lose despite the QB having a great game. You just have to look at more than wins and losses when evaluating a player.

What?!?!?! What else does matter? Seriously? This is the NFL, the ONLY thing that matters is wins. Period end of story.

Of course. That goes without saying.

Quote:
Does Tim Tebow not make stupid mistakes (turnovers) costing his team victory? Check!
Does Tim Tebow give his team a chance to win week in and week out? Check!
Do Tim Tebow's teammates follow his leadership? Check!
Do the Denver Bronco's win football games when Tim Tebow is under center? Check!

Absolutely nothing else matters.

Besides the above 4 things I listed, how else would you evaluate a QB? Just curious.

First of all, many players are responsible for a team winning a game, not just the quarterback. That's the main point I'm trying to make.

The four things you list are all valuable (particularly avoiding turnovers), but they mostly describe a quarterback who manages a game, rather than one who is tasked with winning one. But before I start listing other evaluation methods, I'll take exception to your second contention, that Tebow gives his team a chance to win. In most of the games he's started, Tebow did little to keep his team in the game. The Broncos defense, front line, and running backs were keeping them in the game, but Tebow was either not contributing much or was hurting his team through inaccurate throws and poor judgment. That he has been able to perform at a high level at the ends of games is much to his credit, but without those other contributors, there would be no game to win, partly due to how poorly Tebow was playing during the first three quarters.

So what other ways do I use to evaluate a quarterback? You've listed one of them (low turnover rate). The other big one is yards per pass. With most teams, it's necessary to actively push the ball down the field in order to win and YPG is the best measure of that. Prior to the game with the Vikings, Tebow was averaging less than 5.5 YPG in his starts. That's abysmal and is a principal reason why Denver had been scoring so few points in those games, despite an excellent running game and a great defense that was consistently giving them good field position. Not turning the ball over is really important, but you still need to score points in order to win.

If Denver was playing 11 Tebows on offense and 11 Tebows on defense, then yes, I'd say that the only measure of his value would be their won/lost record. But things aren't that simple and you need statistics and observations to be able to judge how much each part of the team is contributing to wins. Based on these, I thought that Tebow was getting way too much credit for Denver's turnaround. According to your criteria, Trent Dilfer was a great quarterback the year that Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl, because they won so many games. Even Dilfer doesn't believe that.

So to your four points, I would at least add a fifth: Does the quarterback actively advance his team down the field and allow them to score points? Prior to the Minnesota game, Tebow failed to meet that criteria in every start. This last game was different and gives Broncos fans hope that their QB may have turned the corner. We'll just have to see how things procede from here.
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LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.


My sentiments exactly.

I've lived in Oklahoma and Texas (Dallas fan); Nebraska (St. Louis Cardinals football fan, at that time); Virginia (never really became a Redskins fan, but watched the games on TV); and Colorado (Broncos fan). I've enjoyed lots of highs and suffered lots of lows through those teams. The last few seasons with the Broncos have not been rewarding. Elway was certainly the high point for us, and I remember wondering at the time whether it was a good idea to trade for a rookie quarterback who didn't want to play for the team that drafted him......

laugh
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Larry Levy wrote:
Ogsponge wrote:
Larry Levy wrote:
It's very possible for a team to win with a poor quarterback and for a team to lose despite the QB having a great game. You just have to look at more than wins and losses when evaluating a player.

What?!?!?! What else does matter? Seriously? This is the NFL, the ONLY thing that matters is wins. Period end of story.

Of course. That goes without saying.

Quote:
Does Tim Tebow not make stupid mistakes (turnovers) costing his team victory? Check!
Does Tim Tebow give his team a chance to win week in and week out? Check!
Do Tim Tebow's teammates follow his leadership? Check!
Do the Denver Bronco's win football games when Tim Tebow is under center? Check!

Absolutely nothing else matters.

Besides the above 4 things I listed, how else would you evaluate a QB? Just curious.

First of all, many players are responsible for a team winning a game, not just the quarterback. That's the main point I'm trying to make.

The four things you list are all valuable (particularly avoiding turnovers), but they mostly describe a quarterback who manages a game, rather than one who is tasked with winning one. But before I start listing other evaluation methods, I'll take exception to your second contention, that Tebow gives his team a chance to win. In most of the games he's started, Tebow did little to keep his team in the game. The Broncos defense, front line, and running backs were keeping them in the game, but Tebow was either not contributing much or was hurting his team through inaccurate throws and poor judgment. That he has been able to perform at a high level at the ends of games is much to his credit, but without those other contributors, there would be no game to win, partly due to how poorly Tebow was playing during the first three quarters.

So what other ways do I use to evaluate a quarterback? You've listed one of them (low turnover rate). The other big one is yards per pass. With most teams, it's necessary to actively push the ball down the field in order to win and YPG is the best measure of that. Prior to the game with the Vikings, Tebow was averaging less than 5.5 YPG in his starts. That's abysmal and is a principal reason why Denver had been scoring so few points in those games, despite an excellent running game and a great defense that was consistently giving them good field position. Not turning the ball over is really important, but you still need to score points in order to win.

If Denver was playing 11 Tebows on offense and 11 Tebows on defense, then yes, I'd say that the only measure of his value would be their won/lost record. But things aren't that simple and you need statistics and observations to be able to judge how much each part of the team is contributing to wins. Based on these, I thought that Tebow was getting way too much credit for Denver's turnaround. According to your criteria, Trent Dilfer was a great quarterback the year that Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl, because they won so many games. Even Dilfer doesn't believe that.

So to your four points, I would at least add a fifth: Does the quarterback actively advance his team down the field and allow them to score points? Prior to the Minnesota game, Tebow failed to meet that criteria in every start. This last game was different and gives Broncos fans hope that their QB may have turned the corner. We'll just have to see how things procede from here.


Fair enough, after enduring 16 years of the stat king himself with only 1 super bowl to show for it, I just wanted to be sure you were not putting too much faith in "stats" .

For the record, I did not say my criteria makes you a "great" QB but I do believe it is what truly matters and that everything else is icing on the cake.

As far as "many players being responsible for team winning a game", while this is true and anyone would be insane to argue otherwise, no other single position on the field can influence the outcome as much as the QB and I think arguing that point would be a bit insane as well.

As an example, the stat king himself, would meet your 5th criteria and would meet all of mine except the first one. Because he failed miserably at that one criteria for his entire career is why that he will always be on the bottom half of the list of the greatest QB's of all time instead of being considered hands down the greatest ever.

Anyway, we seem to be mostly on the same page.
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The, uh, Stat King, as you call him, routinely got Pro Bowl selections despite very modest statistics. So don't blame the statistics--blame the voters!
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Tebow may not have had great passing stats before this week, but anytime you have a quarterback who is a 100 yard rushing threat, and opens up enough room for his team to gain over 200 yards rushing a game, you have a great chance to win. Hell, Elway wasn't a fantastic passer if you were to measure him purely by QB rating and TD/INT ratio, but he got the job done.
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LennyS wrote:
As an admittadly subdued Bronco fan, it's been hard to get really excited about anything since Elway retired. Say what you will about him, he had magic on the field, and anything could happen when he was under center. We really haven't had that since. I'll be happy just to have a reason to start watching again.



AMEN
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TEBOW is not a pro bowl QB. Yesterday was his best game as a pro. He is showing that he is a winner, but just sayng he "wins" is the excuse everyone makes for a crappy QB. Grbac "just won" for the Ravens and no one mistook him for a good QB.
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futhee wrote:
They do it again. My heart can't take so many last-second wins. Tied for first in the AFC West baby!!! Who woulda thunk it at 1-4???



Back in my days they were what it seem like to lose when they had a big lead or pull it off at the last minute with Jason Elam kicking field goals. surprise I used to be angry many Sundays or at the edge of seat too many times.
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oscal wrote:
futhee wrote:
They do it again. My heart can't take so many last-second wins. Tied for first in the AFC West baby!!! Who woulda thunk it at 1-4???



Back in my days they were what it seem like to lose when they had a big lead or pull it off at the last minute with Jason Elam kicking field goals. surprise I used to be angry many Sundays or at the edge of seat too many times.


Most games, in fact, or so it seemed.
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