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Discworld: Ankh-Morpork» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can demons be moved? rss

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Fiona Naylor
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Hi,

In a 2P game yesterday I was Lord Vetinari and had all 11 areas needed to win. Then a random event put demons in 2 of my areas.

My opponent said that I was stuck unless I could assassinate them as they couldn't be moved. I argued that they are supposed to be treated as minions and that you can move minions as long all the minions are out and that it is to an adjacent area or one that already has a minion of yours in it.

Who is right?

Thanks in advance.

Fiona

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James Newton
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I think that your opponent is right.

The rule about moving minions when you have placed all your minions is in the "place a minion" action, and specifically refers to placing your minions - i.e. if you have placed all of your minions and use that action then you remove one of your minions and place it again. I don't think that having placed all of your minions allows you to move minions not belonging to you (in the same way I don't think that you could move your opponents' minions either).

There are one or two cards whose text refers to moving unspecified minions (e.g. The Dean, I think) which I would assume would allow you to move demons.

A grey area is the Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron and the Duck Man, which say that you can move a minion belonging to another player. I am not sure whether demons count as belonging to another player or not.
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Michael Sweazey
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I would assume that demons and trolls are NPCs, hence they are not a minion controlled by another player, so I don't think Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron, or Duck Man would apply.
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Richard Morris
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msweazey wrote:
I would assume that demons and trolls are NPCs, hence they are not a minion controlled by another player, so I don't think Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron, or Duck Man would apply.
That is certainly the common sense assumption.
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J. Michael Spencer
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msweazey wrote:
I would assume that demons and trolls are NPCs, hence they are not a minion controlled by another player, so I don't think Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron, or Duck Man would apply.


From the FAQ on the last page of the rules:
"Yes, troll and demon pieces should be treated just like player minion pieces."

This is in answer to whether Carcer can be used to remove troll or demon pieces, but by extension I would also apply it to moving other player (or, in this case, non-player) minion pieces. It's possible that more accurate wording on the card should have read "minions not controlled by you" rather than "controlled by another player", but I think that saying that the intended target set doesn't include demons and trolls would be a little rules-lawyery.
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Jan
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jmspencer wrote:
msweazey wrote:
I would assume that demons and trolls are NPCs, hence they are not a minion controlled by another player, so I don't think Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron, or Duck Man would apply.


From the FAQ on the last page of the rules:
"Yes, troll and demon pieces should be treated just like player minion pieces."

This is in answer to whether Carcer can be used to remove troll or demon pieces, but by extension I would also apply it to moving other player (or, in this case, non-player) minion pieces. It's possible that more accurate wording on the card should have read "minions not controlled by you" rather than "controlled by another player", but I think that saying that the intended target set doesn't include demons and trolls would be a little rules-lawyery.


This is my opinion as well.
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Frank Burbach
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Couldn't you also assassinate them?
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Lee Fisher
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Fiona97 wrote:
Hi,

In a 2P game yesterday I was Lord Vetinari and had all 11 areas needed to win. Then a random event put demons in 2 of my areas.

My opponent said that I was stuck unless I could assassinate them as they couldn't be moved. I argued that they are supposed to be treated as minions and that you can move minions as long all the minions are out and that it is to an adjacent area or one that already has a minion of yours in it.

Who is right?

Thanks in advance.

Fiona

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N O
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Where does it say that demons can't be moved?

On page 8 of the rulebook, it says that "Demons can be moved or removed from the board in the same way as minions."

Also, placing a minion when all your minions are out is NOT a movement. You remove a minion from the board, and then you place a minion on the board.

Plus, trolls and demons do not belong to anyone.
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jmspencer wrote:
msweazey wrote:
I would assume that demons and trolls are NPCs, hence they are not a minion controlled by another player, so I don't think Canting Crew, Foul Ole Ron, or Duck Man would apply.


From the FAQ on the last page of the rules:
"Yes, troll and demon pieces should be treated just like player minion pieces."

This is in answer to whether Carcer can be used to remove troll or demon pieces, but by extension I would also apply it to moving other player (or, in this case, non-player) minion pieces. It's possible that more accurate wording on the card should have read "minions not controlled by you" rather than "controlled by another player", but I think that saying that the intended target set doesn't include demons and trolls would be a little rules-lawyery.


Have you even read the Carcer card? It says "...remove one minion of your choice from those areas,..." It does not stipulate a condition that the minion is one that belongs to another player. There's no relation at all to the three cards mentioned above. It escapes me how it can be extended to apply to moving minions and therefore resolve the confusion.

Tt clearly says on the three cards "...minion belonging to another player..." so only minions belonging to another player can be moved.

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Bruce Murphy
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Given AM is fairly light and luck driven, you guys might be in danger of overthinking this.

B>
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Richard Dewsbery
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An awful lot of rules questions on BGG are either as a result of over-thinking things, or worse, under-thinking (often because it's easier to ask the internet instead of reading the rulebook).

Demons (and trolls) are treated like a fifth player's minions. You can move them, remove them, swap them and assassinate them in exactly the same circumstances as you can any other players' minions.

Note that you can only move another player's minion if a card tells you that you can - the rule about moving a minion when all of yours are on the board relates to being allowed to move *one of your own*, not an opponent's minion.
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Vincent N.
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RDewsbery wrote:
An awful lot of rules questions on BGG are either as a result of over-thinking things, or worse, under-thinking (often because it's easier to ask the internet instead of reading the rulebook).

Demons (and trolls) are treated like a fifth player's minions. You can move them, remove them, swap them and assassinate them in exactly the same circumstances as you can any other players' minions.

Note that you can only move another player's minion if a card tells you that you can - the rule about moving a minion when all of yours are on the board relates to being allowed to move *one of your own*, not an opponent's minion.


Do demons and trolls count as one 'faction'? If, for example, I want to control an area with one demon and one troll, do I have to have there two minions (demon and troll are seperate factions) or three (demon and troll count as one faction)?
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Richard Pardoe
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Vinne wrote:
Do demons and trolls count as one 'faction'? If, for example, I want to control an area with one demon and one troll, do I have to have there two minions (demon and troll are seperate factions) or three (demon and troll count as one faction)?

Moot question - if any demons are present, no one can control the area.

Edit (adding rules reference found under Demons on the last page): The area also cannot be controlled by any player nor does it count as an occupied area for Vetinari.
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Vincent N.
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Indeed, stupid question.gulp Just took the rules and read it on page 6, below the Lords explanation You cannot control an area that contains one or more demons.
Richard Dewsbery is right; ...often because it's easier to ask the internet instead of reading the rulebook
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