GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
9,221 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
17 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
35 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

A Few Acres of Snow» Forums » General

Subject: Consider Vietnam rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This post is a request to Martin Wallace to consider developing a Vietnam War Game with the same game system that a "Few Acres of Snow" uses. I will say that I am a really old wargamer since the early days of hexgrids and combat resolution tables. Back in the day, Avalon Hill was the heat, the majority of those games focused on WWII, and were excellent games. A couple of years ago I purchased Waterloo, which I really enjoyed, however; even though it used areas instead of hexes, it was still difficult to find opponents. Then came A Few Acres of Snow. Outstanding! Outstanding, because non wargamers will play, not only will they play, but; will play and enjoy, and be interested enough to actually research the history that the game represents. I used to prefer tactical wargames as to stratigic, but A Few Acres of Snow has shown me that there is a game system that can realistically simulate long term conflicts and be fun and enjoyable. For years I have searched for a Vietnam War game that could bring to the gaming table the essence of that conflict. After playing A Few Acres of Snow, I am confident that this game system can achieve an excellent Wargame (and A Few Acres of Snow Is a Wargame) covering the Vietnam War. So, Martin Wallace please consider this subject, it's time that wargamers have a great game covering this conflict.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G. Gambill
United States
Shawnee on Delaware
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would be curious as well to see what Mr. Wallace could do with this system for this conflict. Instead of logistical issues being simulated in the deck building part of the game, I wonder if a blind draw from different decks could be used to, in some way, simulate the uncertainty of the entire conflict. Who was friend, who was foe? Where, exactly, are the lines? Transportation difficulties that made helicopters such a necessity, and yet so dangerous for the crews. I'm not sure if it could be done, but if anyone could make a run at it, it'd be Mr. Wallace. I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek McKay
Azerbaijan
APO
msg tools
badge
Is it my turn? Sorry, I wasn't paying attention.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes! Then I can use the Hanoi Hammer!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I would LOVE to see Vietnam themed game of this style too.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Wegner
Germany
Bremen
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah!

Vietnam is really a fantastic theme.

Look at this:




[A 9 year old child suffering from Agent Orange - UNICEF photo of the year]


There could be an orange wooden piece, that simulates agent orange. Wouldn't that be great and soooo thematic?


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Noting that it wasn't Agent Orange per se, but sloppily produced versions of it containing dioxins and other nastiness.

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lonnie H
United States
Everett
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
weserkiesel wrote:
Yeah!

Vietnam is really a fantastic theme.

Look at this:

[A 9 year old child suffering from Agent Orange - UNICEF photo of the year]

There could be an orange wooden piece, that simulates agent orange. Wouldn't that be great and soooo thematic?


Not that this is the thread to debate simulating events through gaming or historical simulations, but what do you think it represents in most games/simulations when a "cube" is removed....yes, bad things are happening.

Some simulations are good at helping us to think about or process this information, and hopefully not promote/help/facilitate bad things in the future.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Gautier

Rhinebeck
New York
msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
As we know, people didn't suffer and die terribly during the F&IW, so it's OK to have a game about it.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Gautier

Rhinebeck
New York
msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
boren wrote:
The difference is of course time.


Is it? I recall quite a stink over this:

http://www.robotviking.com/2010/04/15/king-philips-war-bring...

Which event is as old as the beginning of the events covered in AFAOS.

boren wrote:
Si if this game promotes some knowledge and interest in history that's probably not bad.


And the same is not true for a Vietnam wargame, why?

boren wrote:
Outside the US and maybe Australia, I'm not sure how many people care that much either to revisit that recent history.


I'm not sure either, but I don't think it is for me to decide for them what they do and don't want.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the UK (where Martin Wallace is of course, but I have no idea of his views on the subject) the Vietnam war is mostly seen as something the Americans lost (and there may be a touch of schadenfreude associated with that by at least some, possibly more) and then made a lot of films about, some very good, some less so. It's mostly not recalled that Harold Wilson (British PM at the time) resisted a lot of American pressure to join in, something not repeated since.

The point is that there's little emotional attachment to the war in the UK, and probably even less elsewhere, other than as noted the US, Australia and of course Vietnam (where I doubt many copies would sell). It isn't therefore what I would expect to be a good fit to Treefrog. Of course if a large enough US company were interested, who knows (not me).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would buy this yesterday.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dieroll Honker wrote:
boren wrote:
Outside the US and maybe Australia, I'm not sure how many people care that much either to revisit that recent history.


I'm not sure either, but I don't think it is for me to decide for them what they do and don't want.


But someone has to decide, in particular whoever would put time and money into such a project (whether Snow derived or completely different).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
charlest wrote:
I would buy this yesterday.


I'd buy a Snow-derived game (subject to some changes to make it more different each time played) on several topics. But if I bought one based on Vietnam it would be despite, not because of, the subject.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Gautier

Rhinebeck
New York
msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
But someone has to decide, in particular whoever would put time and money into such a project (whether Snow derived or completely different).


True, but you miss the point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It was not my intention to start a great debate on Vietnam. But it is odd that in the 1970's, Avalon Hill was producing one WWII wargame after another, at a time when that war had only been over for 30 years. That was a war that affected almost the entire globe, and a great number of civilian casualities were not only unintentional, but many civilian casualities resulted from intentional systematic "programs" specifically aimed at exterminating civilian populations. I don't know if UNICEF existed in 1944-1945, but if it did, I wonder what the photo of year would have been in those years. I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone, I grew up in Fayetteville, NC, where many young American men left to fight in Vietnam and never returned. My father served two tours of duty in Vietnam and was lucky enough to survive, but I personally know individual soldiers who did not return. I am not a warmonger, nor would I ever attempt to glorify war. However, one of my interests is history, and unfortunately, the history of the human race is littered with war. I guess that some of the responses that this thread recieved, susprised me, especially in light of the fact that most wargames deal with WWII, and you do not see alot of complaints about that particular theme. Being as "politically correct as I possibly can" I would suggest that some posters look in their own backyard before commenting about mine. Thank You
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Fung
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Americans generally have a positive predisposition to WW2 because it was a clear victory over a demonstrably bad (death camps and mass racial cleansing) side. I don't think Germans like talking about WW2, though. Americans have a harder time with Vietnam because some still question what was gained by getting involved and staying so long.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Providence
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
charlest wrote:
I would buy this yesterday.


I'd buy a Snow-derived game (subject to some changes to make it more different each time played) on several topics. But if I bought one based on Vietnam it would be despite, not because of, the subject.


I'd prefer a Labyrinth/Twilight Struggle-style vietnam era game. It just seems to be a better fit to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dieroll Honker wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
But someone has to decide, in particular whoever would put time and money into such a project (whether Snow derived or completely different).


True, but you miss the point.


There's a "But" at the start of what I wrote, which means I'm making a different point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Falcon2 wrote:
I guess that some of the responses that this thread recieved, surprised me


Not sure which those would be. On the possibility you are including me, my point was intended to have nothing to do with the "suitability" of the subject, but was entirely about its commercial viability. (I did refer to schadenfreude, but as a matter of fact, with no personal judgement intended. I do stand by the opinion that not all Vietnam films are good however.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fusag wrote:
Americans generally have a positive predisposition to WW2 because it was a clear victory over a demonstrably bad (death camps and mass racial cleansing) side. I don't think Germans like talking about WW2, though.


But when they do, they do not take the view that Germany was right. So consensus even goes that far. (The first area where consensus falls down is over the role of the USSR, often downplaying its importance - greater than the USA in Europe - for that reason. Aerial bombardment of civilians would be second on the list.)

But to return to Snow, I think that Martin's designer notes make the point that what he took from Dominion was the match to being at the end of a long and unreliable supply chain. (Though it could be more unreliable if sometimes when you drafted cards they never turn up.) So that would be, in my opinion, the critical factor to look for if looking to re-work Snow for a different conflict. Possibly second would be the idea of occupying territory being a factor that cost you in efficiency. Conflicts I've wondered about (since this thread started) include some in Africa, up to WWII.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
Falcon2 wrote:
I guess that some of the responses that this thread recieved, surprised me


Not sure which those would be. On the possibility you are including me, my point was intended to have nothing to do with the "suitability" of the subject, but was entirely about its commercial viability. (I did refer to schadenfreude, but as a matter of fact, with no personal judgement intended. I do stand by the opinion that not all Vietnam films are good however.)


I suspect the commercial viability of a version of this game based on Vietnam would easily surpass that of the viability of the currently themed game, at least in the US. Plenty of time has passed in the US since the end of the Vietnam War, and plenty of well-received and highly watched movies made here on the subject, so I doubt there would be any hesitation on the part of US gamers to buy it. I'd also argue that the US gaming market is far larger than that of Canada or the UK*, so the odds of more people finding a game on a well known subject such as Vietnam of interest rather than a game on what is, to US gamers at least, a frankly obscure subject, are pretty good in my estimation. Whatever "A Few Acres of Snow" has sold so far, I'd wager that a similar game on Vietnam would outsell it by a factor of three* at the least, in terms of total units moved globally.

From a personal standpoint, "A Few Acres" sounds like it has an interesting game system, but the subject does nothing for me and I will not buy it. I would most likely buy a Vietnam-themed version.


*Internet based guess with no hard evidence.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mr. Dearlove, None of my comments were directed at you. I understand that you were addressing the commercial viability of a game based on the Vietnam War, and you very well may be right. My comments were focused on a photo that was posted in this thread, which seemed to me to be a political statement on the Vietnam War. I have nothing but respect for the British Empire, who in my opinion stood alone at the darkest hours against the worse government in the 20th century and convinced the rest of the world that evil could be defeated, thereby causing the relunctent allied governments to come together to achieve that goal. Of course, the Japanese helped us realise that, it is December 7th, isn't it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jackson

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Desert Fox, I believe that you are correct in stating that a game with a Vietnam theme would sell well in the United States. I will say that if you enjoy wargames that "A Few Acres of Snow" is excellent. That this period of history was off my radar, however; after playing, I did gain a new appreciation into an area of history that I had never been interested in. And if I had any idea that my original post would have turned into a commentary on the Vietnam War I would have never posted it, because it really has seemed to distract from the innovative system that Mr. Wallace has developed in "A Few Acres of Snow". If you enjoy history or wargaming in general, you should try AFAoS, it is an Excellent commentary on that conflict, in my opinion. However, the French should have a wagon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Avtges
United States
Bridgewater
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
CONCEALED -3
badge
It's not easy being green.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
markgravitygood wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
charlest wrote:
I would buy this yesterday.


I'd buy a Snow-derived game (subject to some changes to make it more different each time played) on several topics. But if I bought one based on Vietnam it would be despite, not because of, the subject.


I'd prefer a Labyrinth/Twilight Struggle-style vietnam era game. It just seems to be a better fit to me.


This thread and this response in particular make me think that I'd love to see a game simulating conflict between regular forces and guerrilla style forces in which one side plays deck-building (like A Few Acres of Snow) and the other side plays more classic CDG (like Labyrinth or TS). Damn, that would be cool. Somebody go make that.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Latto
United States
Foxboro
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
nix342 wrote:
This thread and this response in particular make me think that I'd love to see a game simulating conflict between regular forces and guerrilla style forces in which one side plays deck-building (like A Few Acres of Snow) and the other side plays more classic CDG (like Labyrinth or TS). Damn, that would be cool. Somebody go make that.

What a cool idea! The side that has a traditional military force could be represented by the traditional CDG deck, while the small guerilla force that has to grow by bringing the people to side with its cause could be represented by a small deck-building starter deck that has to grow by recruiting people (cards) into its force (deck).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Piero
Italy
Florence
flag msg tools
Life and death come and go like marionettes dancing on a table. Once their strings are cut, they easily crumble.
badge
What we see now is like a dim image in a mirror. Then we shall see face to face.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
weserkiesel wrote:
Yeah!

Vietnam is really a fantastic theme.

Look at this:




[A 9 year old child suffering from Agent Orange - UNICEF photo of the year]


There could be an orange wooden piece, that simulates agent orange. Wouldn't that be great and soooo thematic?

No, it wouldn't be so thematic since it would have very little impact on the war.

It may have on the media coverage scale, on the war of ideas.

I doubt that the Anglo-French war was less cruel, but as usual, as is to me apparent in an other thread, cruelty of war and wargames is a thorny subject.

If you post images of suffering, the war suddenly becomes more cruel, and you don't want to game it.
If you you take a distance, millions may die, and you wouldn't notice.

Wargames that are played here are meant for entertainment. Some people may get also an insight on the nature of the conflict. But the same basic punchlines apply: war is a messy, messy and horrible affair, and we love it, and we hate it. And the extraordinary thing to me, is that it doesn't make us warmongers, maybe the contrary.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.