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Super Dungeon Explore» Forums » General

Subject: The heroes definitely divide up into two tiers. rss

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Aaron Bergman
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So, after much experimentation (and a game where I used the Druid, Ranger, and Candy & Cola and got slaughtered in the FIRST TILE on the SECOND ROUND, then a game of Paladin Barbarian and Rogue that was almost a walkover), I can safely say that the heroes currently available divide into two tiers - one of "MUST USE" and one of "NICE BUT DON'T RELY ON THEM."

Personally, this makes me actually.... kinda angry. I'm not sure why it does, but it does. Maybe I'm just feeling residual anger from the utter slaughter but I don't think so.

Anyway, here's my tiers and why. They're roughly in order, but not precisely; the five in each are roughly equal to each other.

MUST USE
A proper Hero team needs at least two of these at its core; three in a 16-bit game will probably be a slaughter (of the Kobolds), and all five are probably overkill in a Super game.

ROYAL PALADIN
The combination of healing with his Potion, defense buffing, decent attack (with the blue dice that enhance his Healer), and a useable Special Attack that still lets him activate his buff, the Paladin is a top-notch performer in all regards. Give him some Loot cards with extra blue Attack dice and he can heal a nearly-dead party in one attack or give him some Armor cards and he can tank amazingly. In other words, he's really good at almost anything you need but ranged attacks. Once enemies show up that activate his Holy it ain't gonna be pretty.

RIFTLING ROGUE
This little demonkin IS the Treasure-sweeper. With her movement, her Potion, and Luck, she can have at least two chests open by turn 3, sometimes by turn 2, and has a good chance of getting the treasures you need (and avoiding Boo Booty!). Not only that, she's a reasonably dangerous fighter and potion-getter too, with 3 blue dice on the attack and Luck she can recharge potions more easily than most heroes, making her vital. Her one problem, being deprived of her defense by Knockdown, can be remedied by Dex-enhancing treasure.

EMBER MAGE
The Ember Mage differs from the others on the must use list because she isn't nasty in Melee. What she brings to the table are her two red Will dice (making it easier to win Initiative), a nasty Wave attack, the ability to inflict Fire, her Flame Strike being one of the strongest base ranged attacks, and lastly her White Mage Potion is a beast at removing widespread Status Effects (like the Fire given by Starfire when she spawns).

HEARTHSWORN FIGHTER
This guy IS the tank, and he can fight better than most of the other heroes too. His Cleave can endanger at least 9 squares on his activations, his extra Heart makes him very resilient, and his Potion is one of those last-ditch things that can save a team.

CLAWTRIBE BARBARIAN
The sleeper on the list, the Barbarian makes it into the top tier with her regeneration (Tough), her 4 total attacks a turn, up to 6 attacks with her special attack, and especially her Backlash potion, which can wipe out a whole group of kobolds without the beneficiary even having to swing once. Her armor isn't very good, but it's balanced by that amazing Tough special ability.


NICE TO HAVE
Just because a hero is on this list doesn't make them BAD, it just means that you can't center a group on them. Instead, adding several of these to a strong core from the must have list can utilize their unique strengths better. They just aren't good enough to BE that team's core.

GLIMMERDUSK RANGER
The Glimmerdusk Ranger is good at ranged (being the only starting hero that uses Dex to do it, making her equipment an easy choice), has a Remedy special action, and a good AOE. Her Potion is highly specific to her, however - allowing her to buff a vital Missile attack, and giving Stealth (which isn't of a great deal of use, yet), and her stats other than Dex are lackluster. She's handy, to be sure, but not vital.

CANDY & COLA
Ah, Candy, Candy, Candy. You've saved my ass in several Super games, but you definitely are not top tier. Why? One answer: Your stats. The only good Attribute you have is Will, but you have no Magic, and there are no relics that give Will-using attacks (yet). This means that equipment which should go to other heroes to make them truly epic must be given to Candy just to make her decent. Sugar Rush is amazing in a pinch, but even with Cola's help it's too hard to refill her potions, and you'll usually only get one use out of it. Probably better to just NOT use it and toss Potions at the Paladin, Barbarian, and Mage. Candy is a one-trick pony, and while it's a good trick, it doesn't make her a must use.

DEEPROOT DRUID
I really, REALLY want to like him. But the Deeproot Druid's problem is that he tries to do a little bit of everything, and doesn't do anything very well. Transforming to Angry Bear removes his Backlash special action, his Poison, and his AOE attack, turning him into a cheap copy of Rex - though he does make a very nice wall in narrower corridors! Sadly, his Potion seems nice, maximizing what hearts you get, but it just doesn't seem to work out right because it only lasts one turn and after it's gone you've got more important party members to refill the potion counters on. He's not tough, he's only medium-strong, his AOE rolls off his inferior Will dice... he just isn't great.

HEXCAST SORCERESS
The Sorceress is practically the epitome of 'nice to have'. Let's face it, few enemies last long enough to let her status-flinging spells have a serious effect on the game, and while putting Weak and Fragile on Starfire or Rex may be 'nice to have' it isn't vital to killing either... and there are several Loot cards that give the abilities, making her doubly redundant. Just like the Ranger, her Potion is most useful to herself in buffing a vital attack, but giving Fly is fairly useless as she should stay far away from the enemy anyway, and can with her magic ability.



You may disagree with me, but these are just my thoughts after 15-odd games as both Consul and Hero; the Heroes I found easiest to ignore and the ones I found most annoying to use are on the bottom tier, and the ones I had on my MUST KILL list and the ones I had on my MUST USE list matched up perfectly.

Though I will admit, I like using the Hexcast Sorceress as a villain (think using Hero as a mini-boss), because her Status Effects can put a serious crimp on pesky Heroes.
 
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Chad Caughmann
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As you've mentioned, I agree with some stuff you've said, disagree with others. It all comes down to personal experience, and considering the game actually is pretty darn balanced, the personal experiences vary a lot.

I think a LOT of it has to do with game size...are you in a smaller game with less space to cover and less overall targets, or are you playing a big 5-player game - this will effect your overall impressions of certain characters' strength's and weaknesses.

Everybody loves the Paladin, understandably...but the more I see him in action, the less impressed I am, outside of his 1 big ability - the potion. He seems less and less exciting of a character each game I play, because everyone around him is doing everything better...except for the potion. He's a pretty slow character too, having 6 movement and no ranged/AoE abilities. The potion is a HUGE redeeming factor...but if the Paladin is just going to sit back and potion while everyone else does most of the killing, it gets to be a little boring for the Paladin. Again...that is just personal experience, and what I'm seeing in my games.

On the other hand - the Ranger...I've seen a few different people say she is mediocre...but she's got one of the best, if not THE best, offensive ability out of ALL the heroes with Sparkle Burst. She can kill up to 9 monsters with a single shot, from range, no less. Sparkle Burst has been devastating in pretty much every game we've played. She's a very offensive character, and mobile too. Lots of range and movement to ensure she'll get into the spots she needs to make shots.

The Sorceress - She's mediocre in small games, but get her in bigger games where you see more Rex's running around, along with the dragon, and she will destroy the bosses. You are making light of the status effects of bosses, but in my experience, those status effects can make a huge difference. She basically took out Starfire by herself one game we had because she successfully landed Weak and Fragile on it on her first 2 hits...making the dragon much less effective overall.
 
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Matt Barnes
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I don't really find the Paladin that amazing so far. Sure, he can heal a lot, but most of the time it seems a little overboard. He more just kind of stands around and passes potions/hearts to people, he rarely does a lot of killing. Sure, he might be a pretty powerful character, but he is really boring to play (as you suck at everything except keeping everyone alive).

I haven't played a game with the Sorceress or Druid yet, but I definitely strongly disagree with your Ranger comments. Her ranged AoE is ridiculously powerful, and is easily killing more than basically any other hero out there (besides the Berserker ... that hero is ridiculous). Not to mention she can buff her own Dex with her potion and really do some damage with the 8 range, AoE attack. Get some equipment on her, and she is also popping AoE ailments on things. You say the Ember Mage is good, even though her AoE is way worse. Melee range on a tissue paper wearing mage isn't safe most of the time.

Basically your entire list just says 2 things. AoE is overpowered, and Healing is overpowered. Which is basically the problem in most video games, so at least they are following the theme correctly, haha.
 
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Jarrett Lee
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This is a little troubling - is it too easy for the hero players to win by using those tier 1 heroes?
 
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Matt Barnes
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Orangecoke wrote:
This is a little troubling - is it too easy for the hero players to win by using those tier 1 heroes?

I would say that many of the heroes listed are more powerful than some of the others, but it isn't overly so.

It is more about balancing your party than just picking random heroes. The paladin and the ember mage having good healing and AoE damage makes them powerful and almost a necessity. Without healing, you will have a harder time keeping your heroes alive.

Most of the games I have played, if the heroes can make it to the end boss, they will usually not have any trouble killing it. But getting to that point, you need a lot of AoE damage, which is where most of the other "tier 1 heroes" look like they are sitting right now.

So I guess, the answer is yes? You would have a lot of trouble with a group of heroes that had no AoE and no healing. I might try a game this weekend using the "tier 2" heroes and just see how it goes, but I would imagine it wouldn't go that well. But again, it is about balancing the party out, some roles are more important than others (like killing lots of things at once and not dying). In a SUPER game, I think any of the heroes would help in some way. Just because some are more "support" doesn't mean they are worse. They just can't kill 6-8 things on one turn (which is a lot of what you need to be doing sometimes).

I want to try out the druid and the sorceress and see how that goes. But also, the main reason they don't get picked is because the lack of crowd control abilities and healing. Maybe these heroes will click more with upcoming expansions? I am not sure.

And the last game I did had the Paladin, Berserker and Ember Mage. I wouldn't say it was easy to win, but they did win. A lot of it came down to a few lucky loot/treasure draws. A few rolls in favor of the Consul would have killed off at least 1 of the heroes at one point, which would have been a game changer. So a lot can come down to the luck factor as well.

If this does turn out to be an issue, it would be nice if the "weaker" heroes were given some boosts possibly through a new hero card, to make them more desirable in parties.
 
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Fake Name
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Meh, I find that while there are definitely members that shine in certain roles (tanks, damage, support,) it's nothing that the right equipment can't help. Our local group has one of our best players routinely play the Consoul, not because we want him to, but because he wants to. Thankfully, it means he gives us a great challenge.

The Ranger and Druid are AWESOME. The Ranger has the single most reliable range AOE attack in the game. Yes the Mage can do alright for herself, but she still has to be relatively close to the action to put out her AOEs. Between her and the Druid, Kobolds be dying in waves, son.

The Druid can also Slow enemies, making it a HUGE PITA to engage and continue engaging Heroes that don't care for that. Actually, there's sadly little reason in my mind to even have the Druid go into Bear form. His ATK doesn't get much better, and his neat abilities pretty much go away. Granted, it's a better DEF, but not by much, and you'd rather be tossing out Poison and Slowness. If the bear could continue to use the Backlash spell, he'd be hilarious as an off-tank. As it is, he only uses it in desperation to hold the line. This doesn't mean he's bad, it just is dissapointing that he's more support than tank-y, that's all.

The Hex Sorceress isn't shabby, either. Granted, she's not pulling the big numbers like the Mage, and if you're going to choose between the two, definitely go for the Mage for that iniative bonus, if nothing else. However, she's far from pointless. Those debuffs keep the tanks alive, and help take down the bigger baddies. If she could affect a Spawn Point with a -Skull debuff, she'd be perfect, IMO.

I get what the OP is saying. The Fighter, Barbarian, Pally, and Rogue are very indipendent (I would just amend that the Ranger can more or less "tank" a Spawn Point unless the Consul spreads out); they don't need the support so long as they can roll relatively consistent. However, that's the point of the game: you can buffs those stats, but everybody can screw up BAD if the dice aren't kind. The support classes (Druid and Sorceress) allow those more indipendent classes to either get a breather, or make the rolling requirements much less stringent. In smaller parties, yes, you have to make hard choices. Heck, in 8-bit, I feel the strongest party is the Mage and Barbarian. Super games allow you to take up some of the more esoteric classes, and really let you see how they can influence the flow of the board.
 
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Matt Barnes
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I just did a 16-bit game with the Hex Sorceress, Ranger and Druid. It went very well. I think really, like you said, the equipment makes the biggest difference.

Again, the Ranger's AoE is beastly. Won the will roll on a round and popped 6-7 wounds of kobolds with one AoE shot, and finished off the Spawn point with her last action point. Was almost 3 loot cards from one hero's turn.

Then I basically just dumped potions to the druid for his healing ability, which came in handy using the Hex Sorcerer's million dice (from loot and the 2 blue + 1 red on EVERY attack).

By the end of the game, the Consul could literally do nothing. All the mobs with more than 1 wound were either immobile, weak and stunned (from gear). The bosses couldn't do anything, as they were fragile, weak, stunned, immobile ... it was just brutal.

The ranger died once at the beginning, but was brought back with a resurrection charm. But past that, there wasn't a lot of trouble. The druid was pretty versatile with his ranged AoE as well as tanking/blocking abilities (he got a +2 heart piece of loot as well). Then the healing potion was great as well.

I would agree that the "tier 1" heroes may be a little more independent, but honestly, this group worked better than the last one I did (Barbarian, Paladin, Ember Mage). The status effects were just amazing, with all the gear, I could almost get every single status effect on something if I wanted. Using the Angry Bear to block/tank, and then the fear of bunching up because of the Ranger AoE was just brutal.

After my first time playing with the so called "weaker" heroes, I can definitely put my worries aside about balance between the heroes. They all seem to work great if played well and the right group is chosen to have synergy with each other.

Can't wait to get some more games this week, weeeeee! I am never going to have time to paint anything with how much play time this has been getting
 
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Matt Barnes
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Had another game last night with the Paladin, Rogue and Ember Mage. The heroes got brutally stomped. The Ember Mage got some bad rolls (and no loot) and missed a few key AoE's. They basically got overwhelmed, and when the +1 action per minion/denizen card was drawn for the Consul, it was completely game over ...

Honestly, I think AoE (ranged AoE) is the biggest "I win" button in the game. The Ranger and Druid both have it. The Barbarian is also just amazing at killing so many things single target, so is also a strong choice.

Next up would be the Ember Mage and Dwarf, however, theirs seems a little weaker compared to the others.

After the 5-6 games I have played, I can definitely say, the more killing power you have is better than more healing or anything else. If everything is dead, then you don't have to worry about anything else

With how the games have gone, I would say the strongest game was with the Ranger, Sorceress and the Druid. Followed closely by the Paladin, Barbarian and Ember Mage team. The first team had a lot of fire power, and the ability to just kite/destroy bosses with ease. The second team was more slow going, but had a little better survivability. Overall, I think it matched up to the group compositions well.
 
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Aaron Bergman
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Ehhh, looking back on the post, I think it was mostly post-game rage that needed an outlet.

Literally, the first tile I got swept under. I wasn't playing dumb, I just couldn't roll to save the lives of my heroes. Then I went with a Paladin/Rogue/Barbarian team and just romped my way through without any problems.

Usually I can let losses just roll off my back, but the utter molestation that was handed to me just got under my skin.

Shouldn't've blamed the heroes, should've blamed the dice. *sigh*
 
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Mont A.
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I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

Now that people have gotten more games in, I'm curious whether anybody has more thoughts about the relative value of the heroes....
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
Her ranged AoE is ridiculously powerful, and is easily killing more than basically any other hero out there...

I'm puzzled about this comment. Sure, she can take out a clump when the monsters are first popping out of a nearby spawn point, but after that we just never seemed to have the monsters group up while she was around.
 
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Deft Titan
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Candy & Cola?

I bought my game maybe a week before Dec 25th, not too long after this thread started. I don't have a candy & cola hero. Your tiers list 9 heros, and my box came with 8 base heroes and 1 angry bear. Did I miss something? or did I possibly get a second edition game that doesn't include a 9th hero?

*Edit* Nevermind, I found out she's an expansion unit.
 
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Eric Prieur
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Her ranged AoE is ridiculously powerful, and is easily killing more than basically any other hero out there...

I'm puzzled about this comment. Sure, she can take out a clump when the monsters are first popping out of a nearby spawn point, but after that we just never seemed to have the monsters group up while she was around.


But monsters spawn each round from each spawn point? In the games I've played it was really rare for the consul to win initiative which mean the ranger could always move in on a spawn point to use her AOE before anything had moved. At that point the consul can only hope for a botched roll or will probably lose all the monsters on that spawn + 1 damage on the spawnpoint. With her last attack she can target the spawn point.

If the consul try to cancel that by using units with more then 1 health, example by popping 4 points of drakes with 2 health on that spawn, you can take the potion that give "fire" and you basically kill everything using 1 shot. Or you can use that potion to take down priests (will only get 1 activation total before dying).

Doing that before moves feel a bit cheezy to me at this point but maybe I'll change my mind after a few more games.
 
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