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Subject: op fire and final op fire rss

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Marco Arnaudo
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ok, first some double checking then some asking:

OP FIRE:
- any unit can op fire as long as it has LOS and is in range. If it has an op fire marker on it it has better chances to succeed, but the marker is not required. The unit is not marked as used until it actually fires. Units that received the op fire marker or actually op fired count against the operations range.

This is the general idea I got; I think it is correct but I would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

Next, my trouble with final op fire starts. The rules say that final op fire allows used units to op fire against adjacent enemy units. Ok. But do I understand it correctly that final op fire still counts against your operations range and therefore cannot be used once you consumed all your operations for that turn? I am asking because the rules don't seem to say explicitly that final op fire counts against the operations total, but if it doesn't all sort of paradoxes present themselves (mainly, units that are used would have limitless final op fire, fresh units would have none).

Related doubt: so if the opponent used all of his operations and you still have some, during your last operations you can stroll around leisurely without fearing any sort of reaction, even if you move adjacent to the enemy?

THANKS!
Marco
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Dan Spezzano
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Only units designated to Op fire (i.e. you used one of your Op points to put a marker on them) can Op fire.

Any used unit can final op fire at an adjacent unit, you can also use a command point to Final Op fire at units that are not adjacent. It doesn't count against your Op range for the turn because you would be employing this on the other players turn.

Think of it this way a unit acted, thus it is in a ready state and an enemy unit is advancing on it. If that unit is about to overrun it, it's going to take final Op fire.

I would highly suggested reading the extended example of play Jim just posted.
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Harald Torvatn
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marnaudo wrote:
ok, first some double checking then some asking:

OP FIRE:
- any unit can op fire as long as it has LOS and is in range. If it has an op fire marker on it it has better chances to succeed, but the marker is not required. The unit is not marked as used until it actually fires. Units that received the op fire marker or actually op fired count against the operations range.

This is the general idea I got; I think it is correct but I would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

Next, my trouble with final op fire starts. The rules say that final op fire allows used units to op fire against adjacent enemy units. Ok. But do I understand it correctly that final op fire still counts against your operations range and therefore cannot be used once you consumed all your operations for that turn? I am asking because the rules don't seem to say explicitly that final op fire counts against the operations total, but if it doesn't all sort of paradoxes present themselves (mainly, units that are used would have limitless final op fire, fresh units would have none).

Related doubt: so if the opponent used all of his operations and you still have some, during your last operations you can stroll around leisurely without fearing any sort of reaction, even if you move adjacent to the enemy?

THANKS!
Marco

It seems to me that you mainly understand OP-fire, but you do not understand operations range.

Op-fire has nothing to do with operations range. Operations range is a limit to how many units you can act with before your enemy get a chance to act wit some of his. When a unit is op-firing it is reacting, not acting.(But it is marked as used after OP-firing).

And all units have limitless final oportunity fire, but fresh units would have to use up their normal op-fire first, before they started to final op-fire.

Also operational range is not a per turn limit, it applies as many times per turn as is neccesary for you to actwith allyour units.
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Harald Torvatn
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dspezzano wrote:
Only units designated to Op fire (i.e. you used one of your Op points to put a marker on them) can Op fire.

I dont think this is correct. Being marked as op-fire makes it easier to fire OP-fire (proficiency lowered by one) but is not a prerequisite.

Besides lowering profiency while attempting op-fire, designating units for op-fire is a way to make those units wait, thus fulfilling the requirements for operations reange and at the same time conserving units for later use. But unit may op-fire without an op-fire marker.
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Marco Arnaudo
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Harald wrote:
marnaudo wrote:
ok, first some double checking then some asking:

OP FIRE:
- any unit can op fire as long as it has LOS and is in range. If it has an op fire marker on it it has better chances to succeed, but the marker is not required. The unit is not marked as used until it actually fires. Units that received the op fire marker or actually op fired count against the operations range.

This is the general idea I got; I think it is correct but I would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

Next, my trouble with final op fire starts. The rules say that final op fire allows used units to op fire against adjacent enemy units. Ok. But do I understand it correctly that final op fire still counts against your operations range and therefore cannot be used once you consumed all your operations for that turn? I am asking because the rules don't seem to say explicitly that final op fire counts against the operations total, but if it doesn't all sort of paradoxes present themselves (mainly, units that are used would have limitless final op fire, fresh units would have none).

Related doubt: so if the opponent used all of his operations and you still have some, during your last operations you can stroll around leisurely without fearing any sort of reaction, even if you move adjacent to the enemy?

THANKS!
Marco

It seems to me that you mainly understand OP-fire, but you do not understand operations range.

Op-fire has nothing to do with operations range. Operations range is a limit to how many units you can act with before your enemy get a chance to act wit some of his. When a unit is op-firing it is reacting, not acting.(But it is marked as used after OP-firing).


ah, got it now. Yes I had overlooked this key detail mainly because it was printed in the red paragraph starting with "for example", so when I re-read I skipped reading all details of that section, thinking it contained an example only.
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Jim F
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Might there be a video coming out on this game...?
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Steve Bishop
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Ashiefan wrote:
Might there be a video coming out on this game...?


On your radar too huh?

Now this might be one we get to the table at Expo next year.
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Marco Arnaudo
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Ashiefan wrote:
Might there be a video coming out on this game...?


YES! I just finished playing scenario 2 with the correct interpretation of the rules and, OMG, what a blast!
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Mark Buetow
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Any unused unit may Op Fire and does not need a marker.

Any used unit may Final Op Fire. A used unit may Fonal Op Fire a smany times as it is eligible.

A unit Op Firing does NOT count against Operations Range. Operations Range is only used when it is your turn/activation.

MARKING a unit for Op Fire is done on your turn and counts toward your Operations Range.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Harald and Malacandra are 100% correct.
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Dan Spezzano
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Harald wrote:

I dont think this is correct. Being marked as op-fire makes it easier to fire OP-fire (proficiency lowered by one) but is not a prerequisite.


Well I have been playing this wrong for 2 weeks then.

Where exactly does it say that in the rules?
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beresford dickens
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Looking at the 'near final' rules on this site (the only set I have), it doesn't so much say that units without an Op Fire marker can Op Fire as NOT say that they can't.

What the rules do say is that all units without a 'Used' marker CAN Op Fire. AFAIK most games with Op Fire markers restrict Op Firing to units with markers, so you can see why people would be confused.
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Dan Spezzano
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Well I feel foolish. I have posted several session reports and have played this game about 14 or 15 times already and have been playing this completely wrong.

The rules say you need to spend your operation points to move, fire or put an op fire marker on the minimum units (going from memory). You're right it doesn't say during the Op Fire section that a unit needs and Op Fire marker, and you're right I assumed coming from countless other games that to be the case.

I guess I would of preferred if that was spelled out a little more. I'll take my own advice and read the extended example of play to see what other rules I am missing.

Funny I was going to post our review on the site tomorrow, guess I will hold off and get a few more plays in using Op Fire correctly.
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Jim Krohn
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Yep, the rules say that units that are not Used may Op Fire. They go on to say that if those units are marked Op Fire they get a reduction to their Proficiency (penalty).

I thought that was clear enough, but you are not the first one to think that. Maybe it is because of what Beresford mentioned. Either way, I am going to have to add a clarification sentence.
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Sean McCormick
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marnaudo wrote:
Ashiefan wrote:
Might there be a video coming out on this game...?


YES! I just finished playing scenario 2 with the correct interpretation of the rules and, OMG, what a blast!


Yes, it really is. Other tactical games, even streamlined ones, feel clunky in comparison.
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Jim F
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bishuk wrote:
Ashiefan wrote:
Might there be a video coming out on this game...?


On your radar too huh?

Now this might be one we get to the table at Expo next year.


Only if you promise not to kick my behind like you did in LB. Had to sell the game to get over the humiliation whistle


Update: Just ordered this from Ugg.de

It cost £35 inc p&p. That's after failing to find a UK distributor who had it in stock or would let me pre-order it. I expect they will get it in, I'm just feeling impatient now...
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Christopher Senn
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Ashiefan wrote:
bishuk wrote:
Ashiefan wrote:
Might there be a video coming out on this game...?


On your radar too huh?

Now this might be one we get to the table at Expo next year.


Only if you promise not to kick my behind like you did in LB. Had to sell the game to get over the humiliation whistle


Update: Just ordered this from Ugg.de

It cost £35 inc p&p. That's after failing to find a UK distributor who had it in stock or would let me pre-order it. I expect they will get it in, I'm just feeling impatient now...


man i want to see a video play through as well. Or Marco doing a video review. He is a great boardgamer and his SMG review was on point.

Seems this game is having a problem reaching customers and potential customers b/c lack of distributors. Shame. Hope this can get fixed and this game picks up. Looks great.
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Kurt R
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I'm clearly missing something on Op Fire. Help me here, pls:

1) So as the German player in scenario 1 (moving 2nd), if I put an Op Fire marker on a unit on my turn, it is simply removed in the Recovery phase and never used? I'm assuming if the US player moves all 3 of his units, then there'd be no reason for me to place an Op Fire marker on my turn b/c after I go, we move to the Recovery phase, right? So as the US player, I'd always want to use my full operations range(?).

2) A unit that Op Fires (passes Prof Check and fires, whether successful or not) is it marked as Used? If so, that comes off in the Recovery phase, right? I can't find confirmation that Op Firing units are marked as used, and since units may Final Op Fire as many times as they want, it's not clear to me.
 
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Jim Krohn
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First, please see the extended example of play:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/73424/extended-example...

Quote:
1) So as the German player in scenario 1 (moving 2nd), if I put an Op Fire marker on a unit on my turn, it is simply removed in the Recovery phase and never used? I'm assuming if the US player moves all 3 of his units, then there'd be no reason for me to place an Op Fire marker on my turn b/c after I go, we move to the Recovery phase, right? So as the US player, I'd always want to use my full operations range(?)


The operations phase is not over until both sides have used ALL of their units. You keep alternating using units within your operations range until both sides are done. THEN, comes Rout, Melee, and the Recovery phase.

Quote:
2) A unit that Op Fires (passes Prof Check and fires, whether successful or not) is it marked as Used?


Yes, a unit that Op Fires is marked as Used.

Quote:
If so, that comes off in the Recovery phase, right?


Yes.

Quote:
I can't find confirmation that Op Firing units are marked as used, and since units may Final Op Fire as many times as they want, it's not clear to me.


Final Op Fire is only for units that are already marked as used. If you are not marked as used it would be normal Op Fire.
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Mark Buetow
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enzo622 wrote:
I'm clearly missing something on Op Fire. Help me here, pls:

1) So as the German player in scenario 1 (moving 2nd), if I put an Op Fire marker on a unit on my turn, it is simply removed in the Recovery phase and never used? I'm assuming if the US player moves all 3 of his units, then there'd be no reason for me to place an Op Fire marker on my turn b/c after I go, we move to the Recovery phase, right? So as the US player, I'd always want to use my full operations range(?).


Yes, if the unit doesn't fire, the marker will be removed in the Recovery Phase. Marking a unit for Op Fire just makes it easier for that unit to pass a Proficiency Check to take the shot. You can Op Fire with a unit not marked for op Fire.

You're also missing that the US has 6 units to activate and their max activation is 3. They might not move all their units before they let you have a turn. A turn is when ALL units on both sides have been used.

Quote:

2) A unit that Op Fires (passes Prof Check and fires, whether successful or not) is it marked as Used? If so, that comes off in the Recovery phase, right? I can't find confirmation that Op Firing units are marked as used, and since units may Final Op Fire as many times as they want, it's not clear to me.


Yes, all Used markers come off during the Recovery phase. Again, note, however, that the Receovery phase only comes after ALL Units have been activated on a turn, not just the amount in the Operations Ranger.


In Scenario 1, the Germans have more units to activate than the Americans so generally the Turn will not be over until the Germans have used all their units. Also note that the German Command point can be used to put an Op Fire marker down before the US gets a chance to activate any of their units. That's helpful for coralling the Americans as they will likely avoid lanes where units have clear shots at them.

Make sense?

 
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Harald Torvatn
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enzo622 wrote:
I'm clearly missing something on Op Fire. Help me here, pls:

1) So as the German player in scenario 1 (moving 2nd), if I put an Op Fire marker on a unit on my turn, it is simply removed in the Recovery phase and never used? I'm assuming if the US player moves all 3 of his units, then there'd be no reason for me to place an Op Fire marker on my turn b/c after I go, we move to the Recovery phase, right? So as the US player, I'd always want to use my full operations range(?).

2) A unit that Op Fires (passes Prof Check and fires, whether successful or not) is it marked as Used? If so, that comes off in the Recovery phase, right? I can't find confirmation that Op Firing units are marked as used, and since units may Final Op Fire as many times as they want, it's not clear to me.


The US player has six units. Even if he uses his full operations range, there will be some left, which will act after you have had an oportunity to act with yours. If what yours do is to put on oportunity fire markers, it will make it easier to oportunity fire against those units.

Units which fires oportunity fire is marked as used. This is in "4.0 Used" in the rules, page 2. ("As each unit is used, it is marked with a Used marker")

Used status does not stop a unit from using final opportunity fire, so there is no conflict there. Indeed, only used units will ever use final oportunity fire, because unused units will use normal oportunity fire instead.
 
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Kurt R
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Jim Krohn wrote:
First, please see the extended example of play:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/73424/extended-example...

Quote:
1) So as the German player in scenario 1 (moving 2nd), if I put an Op Fire marker on a unit on my turn, it is simply removed in the Recovery phase and never used? I'm assuming if the US player moves all 3 of his units, then there'd be no reason for me to place an Op Fire marker on my turn b/c after I go, we move to the Recovery phase, right? So as the US player, I'd always want to use my full operations range(?)


The operations phase is not over until both sides have used ALL of their units. You keep alternating using units within your operations range until both sides are done. THEN, comes Rout, Melee, and the Recovery phase.

Not sure why, but I'm having a hard time with these rules. I've read the extended example but clearly need to read it AGAIN. Thanks, I totally messed up the fact that ALL units must be used up before moving to the other phases!

Quote:
Quote:
2) A unit that Op Fires (passes Prof Check and fires, whether successful or not) is it marked as Used?


Yes, a unit that Op Fires is marked as Used.

Quote:
If so, that comes off in the Recovery phase, right?


Yes.

Quote:
I can't find confirmation that Op Firing units are marked as used, and since units may Final Op Fire as many times as they want, it's not clear to me.


Final Op Fire is only for units that are already marked as used. If you are not marked as used it would be normal Op Fire.

The clarification on using all units in the Operations phase has cleared these questions up. Thanks!
 
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