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Subject: Confronting Valar Morghulis our first game rss

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Eugene
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Our first game of GoT:CG last night, 4p, went pretty much like this. I don't want to get into a protracted discussion on the merits of the game. Instead, I'd just like to get a general consensus from players on that god damn Valar Morghulis plot card that kills all characters on table, along with their accumulated power tokens.

I was House Baratheon. I was doing well. I had 11 power total, about 8 on my one character card with the double Renown power. Then it was killed by VM with a complete sucker punch. I see no way to make acquired power safe from this plot card. And if the plot card is going to come out, how could I, as House Baratheon, manage to win without resorting to the use of vulnerable characters and their vulnerable collection of power tokens?
 
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Drew Dallas
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Baratheon has:
Lightbringer as its best line of defense, you can also have put a duplicate on Robert Baratheon to save him from death.

But as was said in the other thread, valar is a part of the game so you need to learn to play around it and anticipate it. Your characters are going to die alot in this game so it is important to anticipate plots like this and make sure you have enough. Baratheon in paticular need to either be able to rush for the win before anyone considers playing Valar or be able to recover from it by anticipating it and saving some good characters in hand to play immediately after the stark player drops Valar.
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Eugene
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So if I had a 2nd copy of RB, my lower card and all the accumulated power tokens remain after VM is played?
 
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Buz
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Yes, that is correct.
 
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Drew Dallas
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Yes, Robert Baratheon is one of only a couple cards in the core set which have 2 copies. Once you bring the first one in play then during any of your marshalling phases you can play a copy from your hand as a duplicate on the Robert in play for no cost. Then if something would kill, discard, or return robert to your hand or deck you could discard the duplicate to prevent and save him from that effect.
 
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Eugene
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Darksbane wrote:
Baratheon has:
Lightbringer as its best line of defense

That seems pretty nice. That card didn't make it into my hands last night. Didn't even know it was in there.
 
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Eugene
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Darksbane wrote:
Once you bring the first one in play then during any of your marshalling phases you can play a copy from your hand as a duplicate on the Robert in play for no cost.

For no cost? I don't think we caught that.
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Drew Dallas
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Yep here is the relivant section from the rulebook pg 19
Quote:

Duplicates
If you have a duplicate (another card of the same
name) of a unique card in your hand but you already control and own a version of that card currently in play, you may attach the duplicate from
your hand to the unique card in play, for no gold
cost, during your marshalling. Do this by simply
placing the duplicate under the version already in
play. (You control a card you have played as long
as no opponent has taken control of that card
through the use of an effect. A card you own is
one you brought to the game.)

If one of your unique cards is about to be killed,
discarded from play, or returned to your hand
or deck, as a triggered “Response:” effect (see
later), you may discard an attached duplicate to
save the unique card from being killed, discarded, or returned to your hand or deck.

Duplicates, once they have been played, are not
considered attachments. That is, although they
are attached to a character, they are not affected
by effects that specifically affect attachments.

Duplicates have no text, titles, or traits. Duplicates may only be played on unique cards that
you control and own. A card attached in this way
is thus only considered to be a “duplicate card”
while it is actually in play and attached to a version of itself.

You may have more than one duplicate attached
to a single card.
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Andy Mills
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You can also reveal Power of Blood as your plot if you suspect that someone else will use Valar.
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Eugene
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What's that one do?
 
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Drew Dallas
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Power of Blood
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Eugene
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Is that one in the base Baratheon plot deck? I don't recall seeing it.
 
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Rich Johnson
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It's in the Lannister plot deck. It's a great plot for Baratheon though, and you can include two copies in one plot deck.

If you want more dupes for Robert (and the other noble crest characters), you can pick up the Wolves of the North chapter pack, which includes Loyal Guard. These are weenies that will also attach to your noble crest characters as duplicates.
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Eugene
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I question whether our group will ever get to the point of constructing custom decks. What is general opinion of the game balance and playability in the stock base set?
 
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Drew Dallas
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Most people love it from what I've seen. The only usual stumbling block is that people can have a problem dealing with Stark at first and sometimes have a problem with Valar. This game takes a mindset where you have to be willing to lose characters and you have to realize that while military challenges are strong they don't win you the game by themselves. I think this can be compounded by Stark having Valar in their plot deck. I normally suggest moving plots around alittle if this happens, trade Valar to Targ and Power of blood from Lani to Bara. Sometimes this can help.
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Iron James Rackham
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garygarison wrote:
I question whether our group will ever get to the point of constructing custom decks.

If you don't feel like customizing on your own, here's something you can try with the plot decks:

Baratheon:
Summoning Season
The Power of Blood
Tourney for the Hand
Herding the Masses
Fleeing to the Wall
Good for the Gander
Calm over Westeros

Lannister:
Drunken Allegations
Mutual Enemies
Planning Ahead
Wildfire Assault
Hear me Roar
Blockade
Uneasy Truce

Stark:
Building Season
Mutual Blackmail
The Power of Arms
Counting Favors
Noose and Swordpoint
Snowed Under
Power and Wealth

Targaryen:
Condemned by the Realm
Mad King's Legacy
Rule by Decree
Mutual Cause
Rains of Autumn
Valar Morghulis
Holding the Trident

This setup preserves the overall income (approximately) and claim for each house, but gives them some plots that fit better with the rest of their decks. I didn't check initiative, but that's not crucial in Melee imo. Also, when playing Joust, make sure you don't use Condemned by the Realm at all. Possibly give one player Valar Morghulis and the other Wildfire Assault to provide a way to come back from a bad start.

If you still have trouble keeping Robert and friends alive, consider giving them Bodyguard from the Targaryen deck, as they have much more use for it.
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Agent 57
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I always see players suggest removing Valar from Stark in the Core Set... I believe this is a bad idea. Here is why...

There are two common complaints about Stark,

1. They start getting military dominance early and just whack characters left and right. Well their lack of intrigue makes them vulnerable in a fashion which every House can exploit, if they have few cards in their hand they eventually are top decking and then Valar comes out and their lack of dupes and saves means their military dominance ends. Essentially Valar serves two purposes here, teaching the other players how to coordinate their efforts against an opponent, and as a countdown clock, the veritable sword of Damocles hanging over their head where they must win in six plots or get screwed back to the stone age.

2. They can't stand up to the other houses Intrigue challenges and even in power find themselves falling behind, military challenges never quite even things up because the other players have learned that military challenges are the least worthwhile challenge in the long game and as such pretty much focus on stealing power and discarding cards from hand, with Stark a frequent target. Valar early gives Stark a chance to knock out the offending characters before their hand is too depleted while having put some good locations into play to let them toss out a couple of strong or stealthy characters and with all that military claim soak wiped from the table Stark can get back to doing what it does best, kicking you in the teeth.

When Balar Morgulis is moved to a different House Stark has a problem of running away with military challenges or recovering from that utter lack of Intrigue. Which depends on your player group. Once you start building your own decks then Stark rarely needs Valar, they have better tools to help them fend off Intrigue challah gets and the other Houses can use their saves and dupes to mitigate the pain of those repeated military challenges.

Newer players to the game tend to play Thrones as if it were checkers. Each decision made in a vacuum, based entirely on what will give them the biggest and most immediate impact. This game is much more like chess where you must plan not just several actions but phases or even turns in advance. If you get a card and play a card you will find your decisions are simple and your play experience pretty shallow. When you start planning ahead, really strategizing the game opens up and your experience is much more rich.

From a strategy perspective it is one of the more complex card games you will find. That is not everyone's cup of tea though, so if you guys, or particular people in your play group, don't like it there is nothing wrong with them, or the game, it just isn't a good fit.

Now how to handle Valar, and by extension play Baratheon...

Bara's Core Set deck works best when you play one of two strategies, Rush or Delayed Rush. In rush you want to get out the best characters you can as fast as you can and grab as much power as you can before anyone else has an opportunity to set up and mount a defense against you. Delayed Rush is similar, but you put out weenie characters, unimportant pieces, and try to look meek and non-threatening while slowly taking a power here or a power there.

I usually recommend attacking the player you oppose or attacking the player with the most power for power challenges and go soft on intrigue and military challenges unless someone is wide open and you can really make it effective, removing a major threat because they may win. If you stick to the person you oppose or the person with the most power you can always use table talk to make it seem less threatening. "I am only attacking you because I oppose you" or "if I don't you might win." you never want to have the most power on the table unless you are goi to trigger your rush and try to win within two rounds. Being last or second to last in power is ideal. NO ONE grabs power as fast as you do. With the right cards and play, even with core set you can grab 6 power in one challenges phase, without too much difficulty.

I prefer delayed rush because the time to trigger the rush is very obvious, right after the Stark player has revealed Valar. There are certainly other times to do it, but this is the easiest to recognize and generally speaking the safest time to do it. Anticipate she he is going to flip it play your best plot to recover and go to town while everyone else is scrambling from having over extended.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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garygarison wrote:
Our first game of GoT:CG last night, 4p, went pretty much like this. I don't want to get into a protracted discussion on the merits of the game. Instead, I'd just like to get a general consensus from players on that god damn Valar Morghulis plot card that kills all characters on table, along with their accumulated power tokens.

I was House Baratheon. I was doing well. I had 11 power total, about 8 on my one character card with the double Renown power. Then it was killed by VM with a complete sucker punch. I see no way to make acquired power safe from this plot card. And if the plot card is going to come out, how could I, as House Baratheon, manage to win without resorting to the use of vulnerable characters and their vulnerable collection of power tokens?


We played a few turns the other night to get a feel for how it worked, and I, too, was House Baratheon. The OP's question brings a question to my mind. I played The Knight of Flowers, who, if standing, at phase x (I don't recall the name, but after challenges), a power token is taken.

Does this power token go on the House Card or on The Knight of Flowers, or is this just an ability for the knight played by the OP?

Brian
 
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Andrew Rice
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"At the beginning of the dominance phase, Knight of Flowers claims 1 power if he is standing."

The power goes on Knight of Flowers. If he dies or is discarded, the power is lost.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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andy.rice@att.net wrote:
"At the beginning of the dominance phase, Knight of Flowers claims 1 power if he is standing."

The power goes on Knight of Flowers. If he dies or is discarded, the power is lost.


That's pretty rough on him, considering he can't have any attachments. Lightbringer couldn't even help him.

Brian
 
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Eugene
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Agent 57 wrote:
I prefer delayed rush because the time to trigger the rush is very obvious, right after the Stark player has revealed Valar.

What if Valar is the next-to-last plot played? The final plot card held by the Stark player is played the next round, and then Valar is back in Stark's hands again, cocked and ready, correct? At least that's how it happened in our game. Made me very hesitant to put out good characters afterward.
 
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Nenad Mitrovic
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You hawe this cards

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/core-set...

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/core-set...

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/brotherh...

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/defender...

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/kings-of...
 
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Grant Batt
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I love Valar! Whats not to love about Valar!? I always run with Valar in my Greyjoy deck! Yet my group always seems surprised when I play it....
 
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Nenad Mitrovic
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gdotbat wrote:
I love Valar! Whats not to love about Valar!? I always run with Valar in my Greyjoy deck! Yet my group always seems surprised when I play it....


I hate Valar devil
 
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