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Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: U-Boat Leader vs The Hunters rss

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Bernd Caspers
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I would call myself a casual wargamer.
Since seeing "Das Boot" as a kid in 1981 in the cinema and playing alot of Silent Service on the C64 in the 80´s im hooked on WWII submarine warfare.
I´m more interested in the tense narrative and drama this type of asymetric combat can create, than detailed, accurate simulation, but I like interesting descisions.
I lean more toward lower complexity, but I like to be able to play a campaign that gives you a feeling of something grand.

Could someone make a comparsion of the 2 games, I´m really thinking about getting one of them, but certainly not both, because basically I really prefer videogames for solo gaming, but here I might make an exception.

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Jay Sheely
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I have the same questions. I was holding U-Boat Leader in my hands earlier today. It looks very interesting but I've played plenty of games that I didn't like and wish I had waited to read a bunch of reviews.

I'll definitely buy one or the other. I just need to be patient to see more info on The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43.
 
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Alexandros Boucharelis
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well its kinda what role do you like, the U-Boat Leader takes you to the position of a flotilla commander, commanding several u boats.
In The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43, you are a commander of a single u boat and the experience is similar to that of the B-17: Queen of the Skies as the designer says, so if you like Das Boot i m sure that this is your choice! For me, i 'm doomed, i just have to buy both of them!
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Helmut Apel
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Easy decision: Since "U-Boat Leader" is available now and "The Hunters" is scheduled for 2012, i get the first one now and the second one next year thumbsup
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Steven Larsen
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I wanted to bring this thread back from the dead since it has been so long since the last post. Does anyone have anything else to offer? Does one game have more flaws? Are the components equal in quality or have they been upgraded since? Anything else?
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Michael Liljequist
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The Hunters is an awesome game....and also, they just recently made a new version with US submarine combat in pacific...haven't played that one, but the system they use is pretty good and is a challenge. check out the games here in the forums...
Mike
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James Hébert
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You can get something of a "preview" of The Hunters here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140525/raiders-deep-u-boa...

This is a fan-made, publisher-quality, complete game designed by BGG member "Beery" using the game system from The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43 and Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45 as applied to German U-Boats of WWI. Print it out, add a few dice, and you can get an experience very close to the Hunters! It is excellent.

Here's the info from the author:

Raiders of the Deep: U-boats of the Great War, 1914-18 is a variant of The Hunters that places the player in command of a German U-boat during WWI. Completely re-written rules and reworked charts simulate all the major aspects of the First U-boat War, while all-new artwork immerses the player in the atmosphere of the period.

For fans of Austrian U-boat careers, this version also contains an Austro-Hungarian U-boat commander name generator.
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Reuben Lam
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There's also a late war version of "The Hunters" called "The Hunted". Both are on GMTs P500 "Made the Cut" list.
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jhebert wrote:
this version also contains an Austro-Hungarian U-boat commander name generator.


That's not something you see in a lot of game descriptions.
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Cole Biere
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jhebert wrote:
You can get something of a "preview" of The Hunters here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140525/raiders-deep-u-boa...

This is a fan-made, publisher-quality, complete game designed by BGG member "Beery" using the game system from The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43 and Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45 as applied to German U-Boats of WWI.[/i]


While he's certainly a fan, I think it's safe to refer to Ian "Beery" Cooper as a designer.. Yes, Raiders of the Deep will generally familiarize new players with the Hunters system that it's based on - but make no mistake - this is no mere re-skin.. RotD is a considered historical simulation - and a finely tuned game (carefully constructed from reams of data to reflect the experience of WWI era submarine warfare.. just like The Hunters/Hunted does for WWII, and Silent Victory for the Pacific. All great games in their own right, nuanced to capture and model specific situations, and tell different stories.

 
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Steven Larsen
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fuzynblue wrote:
There's also a late war version of "The Hunters" called "The Hunted". Both are on GMTs P500 "Made the Cut" list.


Any idea on how that will play differently from Hunters? I think the rules are the same but I imagine Hunted must be hopeless. The late war was suicide for U-Boats wasn't it? I wonder if the game experience is different?
 
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Bog Pig wrote:
jhebert wrote:
You can get something of a "preview" of The Hunters here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140525/raiders-deep-u-boa...

This is a fan-made, publisher-quality, complete game designed by BGG member "Beery" using the game system from The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43 and Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45 as applied to German U-Boats of WWI.[/i]


While he's certainly a fan, I think it's safe to refer to Ian "Beery" Cooper as a designer.. Yes, Raiders of the Deep will generally familiarize new players with the Hunters system that it's based on - but make no mistake - this is no mere re-skin.. RotD is a considered historical simulation - and a finely tuned game (carefully constructed from reams of data to reflect the experience of WWI era submarine warfare.. just like The Hunters/Hunted does for WWII, and Silent Victory for the Pacific. All great games in their own right, nuanced to capture and model specific situations, and tell different stories.



I am going to have a look at that, thanks.It is a bit embarrassing since I consider myself a wargamer well read in military history, but differences would you expect to find between submarine operations in WWi and WWII?

More speed and less diving capability in the sub, I suppose. What about anti-sub capabilities? I have read very little on submarine operations.
 
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Cole Biere
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Rollo il Gatto wrote:
fuzynblue wrote:
There's also a late war version of "The Hunters" called "The Hunted". Both are on GMTs P500 "Made the Cut" list.


Any idea on how that will play differently from Hunters? I think the rules are the same but I imagine Hunted must be hopeless. The late war was suicide for U-Boats wasn't it? I wonder if the game experience is different?


"Hopeless", yes. "Suicidal", yes. Basically, it will be much harder.. focusing on survival. Changes in tactics and technology (on both sides) will be modelled, late-war boat types and patrol zones will be included.. It will tell a different story, and should prove to be a very different experience.. MUCH discussion concerning The Hunted has taken place on The Hunters forum (BGG) over the past few years (between those more knowledgeable and articulate than myself).
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Cole Biere
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Rollo il Gatto wrote:
Bog Pig wrote:
jhebert wrote:
You can get something of a "preview" of The Hunters here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140525/raiders-deep-u-boa...

This is a fan-made, publisher-quality, complete game designed by BGG member "Beery" using the game system from The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43 and Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45 as applied to German U-Boats of WWI.[/i]


While he's certainly a fan, I think it's safe to refer to Ian "Beery" Cooper as a designer.. Yes, Raiders of the Deep will generally familiarize new players with the Hunters system that it's based on - but make no mistake - this is no mere re-skin.. RotD is a considered historical simulation - and a finely tuned game (carefully constructed from reams of data to reflect the experience of WWI era submarine warfare.. just like The Hunters/Hunted does for WWII, and Silent Victory for the Pacific. All great games in their own right, nuanced to capture and model specific situations, and tell different stories.



I am going to have a look at that, thanks.It is a bit embarrassing since I consider myself a wargamer well read in military history, but differences would you expect to find between submarine operations in WWi and WWII?

More speed and less diving capability in the sub, I suppose. What about anti-sub capabilities? I have read very little on submarine operations.


Speed is not explicitly modelled in the game(s), though it is accounted for. Diving capability is effected by crew quality and boat type (in the case of the K.u.K SM-U5, petrol fumes and poor ventilation can prohibit a submerged attack..)

Ian expresses this very eloquently in the introductory paragraph and the designer's notes of the Raiders rulebook. But, in short, WWI era specific features include: mines, nets, ramming, Q-ships, early depth charging, early air (very minimal), political policies/propaganda.. A huge emphasis on U-boat surface engagements (boarding parties to scuttle enemy ships or take as prize..) rather than deck gun/torpedo fire.. Not to mention all the historical flavour afforded by the role-play elements (names, biographies, boat and flotilla assignments, etc)..

PS

the rules are re-worked and integrated to capture and express all this.. not simply tacked on embellishments. Same goes for SV, and The Hunted..
 
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Ernie Olsen
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Just a quick comment on the other side of this discussion, U-Boat Leader. The 2nd edition has a couple of improvements over the original. The original was criticized for being too easy, and that the tactical battle part of the game was a bit bland. The 2nd edition replaces the familiar 'stress' damage of the Leader series with a chit-pull damage system that adds variety and more tension to the battles. The 2nd edition also has optional rules that make, imho, the game harder better, especially in regards to torpedo effectiveness. The strategic part of U-Boat Leader I find to be just turning cards for random events - there's no strategy in it at all - but I do like the tactical part, where you can attack a convoy with a co-ordinated wolfpack.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Mellonhead3013 wrote:
Just a quick comment on the other side of this discussion, U-Boat Leader. The 2nd edition has a couple of improvements over the original. The original was criticized for being too easy, and that the tactical battle part of the game was a bit bland. The 2nd edition replaces the familiar 'stress' damage of the Leader series with a chit-pull damage system that adds variety and more tension to the battles. The 2nd edition also has optional rules that make, imho, the game harder better, especially in regards to torpedo effectiveness. The strategic part of U-Boat Leader I find to be just turning cards for random events - there's no strategy in it at all - but I do like the tactical part, where you can attack a convoy with a co-ordinated wolfpack.


The 'strategy' to that part of the game is more 'how far to push your luck' than anything. That is, you may have better target selection opportunities in further sea zones from your home port - but transiting sea zones draws event cards. So how far out do you go? And then, once out there - how long do you stay? You draw more event cards patrolling a zone than transiting it, after all. But if you're in a good spot...?

I think that works pretty well for the strategic part of the game.

The tactical part...I do wish had just a *little* bit more to it. I've seen the total overhaul by
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It's gorgeous, but...man, that feels like overkill. And replaces so much of the game, where I'd rather just some more modifiers to work with what is already present. IE., some incentive to stalk the convoy a bit before attacking to build a torpedo solution, to attack from the flank rather than bow/stern, to prefer surface combat at night, etc.
 
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