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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » General

Subject: Is Duranium Armor to powerful? rss

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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Someone with that large a fleet is a force to be reckoned with without the Duranium Armour!
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Scott Randolph
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In a large battle, I don't see how the "one free hit" from DA could be that overwhelming? The tech allows a player to repair only one ship per space battle round...is it possible that you have been playing that every ship with the Sustain Damage capability gets repaired?
 
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Scott Lewis
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JohanCarstensen wrote:
SFRR wrote:
In a large battle, I don't see how the "one free hit" from DA could be that overwhelming? The tech allows a player to repair only one ship per space battle round...is it possible that you have been playing that every ship with the Sustain Damage capability gets repaired?


Nope. Last time he had a flagship with the same ability and also the tech that gives the ships an ability to take 2 hits on each sustain damage flip. It was quite an enjoyment to see the the other fleet being crushed to peaces with out one single ship being destroyed for him. And He obviously won that game because nobody could destroy his fleet at that time.

So you are saying that the fleet with 5 Dreadnoughts, 2 carriers, and 12 fighters couldn't get more than one hit per round on average?

Sounds like the guy had some really crappy die rolling. 5 Dreadnoughts alone should have at least 2 or 3 hits per round on average, certainly enough to whittle away the Dreadnoughts.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how they aren't taking any damage. Duranium Armor with the Letnev ability is pretty mean, but it doesn't block against things like Direct Hit either!

It's a powerful ability, but it sounds like in this case the losing player just had some incredibly bad luck.
 
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Steve Williams
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Judging by the threads decreeing that Dreadnoughts are worthless, I would say that a tech that throws them a bone is not overpowered by any means. It's a tech you have invest in and at the end of the day is only helping combat, so nothing to be afraid of I'd say.
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Jan Probst
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Letnev has got a cool combo going, sure. He also has other problems and weaknesses. Fly circles around his Dreads or troll him with ACs he cant agent.

For other races, the benefit of Duranium is nice, but not excessive imo.
You can still bring a wipeout or near-wipout to decide a battle regardless how much he repairs. In small battles, it is kinda overwhelming, yeah - but how important can the battle be if its so small that 1-2 repair out-tanks you indefinitely?

Where Duranium IS disproportionate imo is ground combat against GFs. no-hit rounds are common for GFs, often in a row, and every one of them undoes several rounds of hitting. But, uhh, infantry versus tanks. that being a walkover (rollover?) doesn't bother me. Use proper house fixes that make tanks bombardable, bring your own tanks, or go for other planets - there's only 4 tanks, they can't be everywhere.
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Andy Day

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sigmazero13 wrote:
JohanCarstensen wrote:
SFRR wrote:
In a large battle, I don't see how the "one free hit" from DA could be that overwhelming? The tech allows a player to repair only one ship per space battle round...is it possible that you have been playing that every ship with the Sustain Damage capability gets repaired?


Nope. Last time he had a flagship with the same ability and also the tech that gives the ships an ability to take 2 hits on each sustain damage flip. It was quite an enjoyment to see the the other fleet being crushed to peaces with out one single ship being destroyed for him. And He obviously won that game because nobody could destroy his fleet at that time.

So you are saying that the fleet with 5 Dreadnoughts, 2 carriers, and 12 fighters couldn't get more than one hit per round on average?

Sounds like the guy had some really crappy die rolling. 5 Dreadnoughts alone should have at least 2 or 3 hits per round on average, certainly enough to whittle away the Dreadnoughts.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how they aren't taking any damage. Duranium Armor with the Letnev ability is pretty mean, but it doesn't block against things like Direct Hit either!

It's a powerful ability, but it sounds like in this case the losing player just had some incredibly bad luck.


Well, with DA and the FG, Letnev can absorb the first 4 hits every round for free. Not too shabby. I look forward to trying it!

But generally, people think dreads are stinky poopoo. They need the bone.

What DOESN'T need the bone are MU, which go from OP to... more OP.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I'd agree if I thought MU's were even remotely OPed, which I don't. They are good, but the fact there are only 4 of them, can't be carried on cruisers or DNs, and never get any better (except DA, I guess), I think they are just slightly better than average. Oh, and expensive, too.
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Mikael Halonen
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I think Johan got the number of fighters wrong. The battle consisted of Hacans 4 dreads, 2 carriers and 6 fighters(cybernetics) vs Letnevs 4 dreads, a cruiser(hylar v) and letnev flagship. Letnev had duranium armor and racial tech up. He spent trade goods for racial ability during the first 2 rounds of battle. He also played a morale boost.

Hacan had the warfare +1 bonus.

Result was an almost total loss for Hacan(most of letnevs dreads was damaged at the end) and I doubt 6 more fighters would have done the trick. Powerful combo although I dont think its unbeatable.
 
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Fedor Syagin
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Mikael Halonen wrote:

When selecting races next time I will not look for other abilities of the race. I will look for how easy it will be to get that overpowered tech Sardakk N'Orr starts with Deep Space Cannon and can easly get Duranium Armor on there first tech pick. Races Starting with Hylar V Assault Laser: L1Z1X Mindnet, Sardakk N'orr, Barony of Letnev, Universities of Jol-Nar, Mentak Coalition, Yin Brotherhood and Yin Brotherhood. These races can get Duranium Armor on turn 2.


In our games not a single time a player won while having this technology.
I mean we once had a game when 3 people out of 4 had it and the only person who didn't get that tech won the game! Again - technologies are cool but they don't always translate into victory points!
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Mikael Halonen
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You dont want DA that early. DA function best as a middle-lategame tech. Things like XRD and Stasis Capsules are much more important early on and I rather pick theese techs early and DA later in the game when my Dreads, Warsuns or Flagship is already built and in position to strike. Before that DA are naturally useless.
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John Clark
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JohanCarstensen wrote:
My resent collusion is that Duranium Armor might be a little bit to powerful. Every time I have seen it in play I have seen unstoppable fleets with about 5 dreadnoughts crushing massive armies with the same number of dreadnoughts, 2 carriers and 12 fighters. The one with Duranium Armor did not loose a ship. Have any one seen the same things?


Let's do the calculations here using averages.

Round 1:

Fleet 1: the 5 dreadnaughts will do 0.6x5 = 3 hits.

Fleet 2: will do 0.6x5 + 0.2x2 + 0.2x12 = 3+0.4+2.4 = 5.8 hits.

Fleet 1 will have to take 5.8 hits. Let's assume its 5 hits. All 5 dreadnaughts are damaged, but one gets fixed, so 4 DNs are damaged.

Fleet 2 will damage 3 dreadnaughts.

Round 2:

Fleet 1: 3 hits

Fleet 2: 5.8 hits

Fleet 1 will have to lose 5 dreadnaughts.

Fleet 2 will damage the other two dreadnaughts and lose a fighter.

HUGE win to Fleet 2.

There is NO way, without stupidly unlucky rolling, that Fleet 2 can lose this battle.
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John Clark
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Mikael Halonen wrote:
I think Johan got the number of fighters wrong. The battle consisted of Hacans 4 dreads, 2 carriers and 6 fighters(cybernetics) vs Letnevs 4 dreads, a cruiser(hylar v) and letnev flagship. Letnev had duranium armor and racial tech up. He spent trade goods for racial ability during the first 2 rounds of battle. He also played a morale boost.

Hacan had the warfare +1 bonus.

Result was an almost total loss for Hacan(most of letnevs dreads was damaged at the end) and I doubt 6 more fighters would have done the trick. Powerful combo although I dont think its unbeatable.


ok, this battle is totally different to the one in the first post. Letnev would win this easy every time, often without losing a ship. The first post seems like a case of very selective memory. But its not because of Duranium Armour. The Letnev Flagship can repair each round and, with the racial tech (which he had), sustain damage is worth two hits rather than one - those are the reason why the battle is won so easily.

Remember that Duranium Armour effectively saves you one hit per round.
The racial tech (noneuclidian shielding) saves you six hits for the battle (one for each DN and flagship), and more if you are repairing each round. Even if you don't repair, the battle has to go for more than six rounds to make Duranium Armour better than Noneuclidian Shielding, which is rarely going to happen.

Duranium Armour is a useful tech for races going heaving with DNs (which were underpowered), but its far from overpowered.
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Dave Taylor
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As I said in another thread, I believe DN with no extra techs are basically white elephants: slow and with inferior (compared to an equal weight of CA and DD) combat performance. Unlike some, I believe this was deliberate and not a "flaw" that needs fixed. DN are supposed to be overpriced vanity vessels, like 20th century battleships; note that some of the objectives force you to build them, which suggests to me they might not otherwise be the best bargains in the galaxy. I have no problem with that.

However, if you really want to make your overpriced white elephants effective in combat, you can tech them out with Assault Cannons, Type IV Drives, and now Duranium Armor. Then, finally, their performance will match their menacing appearance - with a hefty price tag. Personally I prefer to build the CA and DD (and some fully loaded CV) unless my secret objective leaves me no choice but to build DN. But I'm sure either strategy can be effective in combat.
 
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