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Subject: Kingmaking in Belfort rss

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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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I tried to come up with an eloquent way to put this but failed miserably.

On the last turn in Belfort, often players without a chance to win are forced to kingmake as the only choice for building placement will be to bring down one of the contenders area control points.

I can't be the first person to notice this.
 
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Tim Seitz
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Vanish wrote:
I tried to come up with an eloquent way to put this but failed miserably.

On the last turn in Belfort, often players without a chance to win are forced to kingmake as the only choice for building placement will be to bring down one of the contenders area control points.

I can't be the first person to notice this.

It's not kingmaking if there's no choice involved.

Also, it's an area control game. If you want to win, you should plan on going last on the last turn, so you are the one making the last decisions about who has majority where.
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Harold Coleman
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There are ways to mitigate this, such as building last to optimize your placement or, depending on the interactive guilds used in the game, choosing the one that allows you to swap building tokens. I suppose it's possible to have good play undone by kingmaking on the last turn, but no more so than during the game when someone builds to tie you in an area and take away your points. It's part of the game.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.
 
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Adam O'Brien
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Also, how badly is this person playing that they don't already have control of at least one district? Seems like you should always have the choice of just piling into a district you already control if you are worried about kingmaking.
 
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Tim Seitz
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Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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3dicebombers wrote:
Also, how badly is this person playing that they don't already have control of at least one district? Seems like you should always have the choice of just piling into a district you already control if you are worried about kingmaking.


Piling into a district you already control will get you no extra points, whereas placing in one of the kingmaking areas might net you a better score.

I've often seen the counter to Kingmaking being that people should be playing "to score for themselves, not for others". In Belfort, on the last turn, in order to increase your own score you may be forced to kingmake. This goes counter to many design principles I've seen.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.


Please then, enlighten me, as there is no 5th player emblem on the King's court.
 
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Klure Junior
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Vanish wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.


Please then, enlighten me, as there is no 5th player emblem on the King's court.


no there is not because the order on the court is to decide who chooses another players turn token first, NOT what turn order token you receive from going there.

So the goal is to go first on the second to last turn in order to make sure you can be the first to place a worker in the kings tent and ensure you can pick turn token 5 before anyone else.
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Seth Jaffee
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Vanish wrote:
3dicebombers wrote:
Also, how badly is this person playing that they don't already have control of at least one district? Seems like you should always have the choice of just piling into a district you already control if you are worried about kingmaking.


Piling into a district you already control will get you no extra points, whereas placing in one of the kingmaking areas might net you a better score.

I've often seen the counter to Kingmaking being that people should be playing "to score for themselves, not for others". In Belfort, on the last turn, in order to increase your own score you may be forced to kingmake. This goes counter to many design principles I've seen.

In almost every game, almost every move you make contributes to kingmaking (ideally to making yourself king, but failing that, making someone else king). The only time people tend to notice is at the very end of the game.

I agree, that can happen in Belfort sometimes - where gaining X points makes player A win while gaining Y points makes player B win. Worse perhaps is when X=Y, and you can't even say "Well, I'll take the one that gets me the most points." In that case, everyone's got their own protocol to choose one over the other... the guy that didn't reduce your score earlier that game, the guy that DID use your guild when you needed that extra $1, coin toss...
 
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Tim Seitz
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Vanish wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.


Please then, enlighten me, as there is no 5th player emblem on the King's court.

When you play to the King's Camp, you don't take that # crest, you swap with the player of your choice.
Quote:
In placement order (left to right), each player
with a Worker in the King’s Camp may swap
Turn Order Crests with another player and
reclaim their Worker.

So if you are #1 and go first to the King's Camp, you can take the #5 crest from the last player and give him the #1.
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Seth Jaffee
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klurejr wrote:
Vanish wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.


Please then, enlighten me, as there is no 5th player emblem on the King's court.


no there is not because the order on the court is to decide who chooses another players turn token first, NOT what turn order token you receive from going there.

So the goal is to go first on the second to last turn in order to make sure you can be the first to place a worker in the kings tent and ensure you can pick turn token 5 before anyone else.

This is correct...

In placement order at the King's Tent you SWAP your turn order crest with ANY PLAYER (this could be yourself). So if you want to go last, visit the king, and swap crests with whoever has #5.
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Seth Jaffee
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out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Vanish wrote:
You cannot choose to go last in Belfort in a 5 player game.

Come again? I think you have the rules wrong, my friend.


Please then, enlighten me, as there is no 5th player emblem on the King's court.

When you play to the King's Camp, you don't take that # crest, you swap with the player of your choice.
Quote:
In placement order (left to right), each player
with a Worker in the King’s Camp may swap
Turn Order Crests with another player and
reclaim their Worker.

So if you are #1 and go first to the King's Camp, you can take the #5 crest from the last player and give him the #1.

Right. Also works if you were #3 for example, you'd take #5 and give that player #3.

I will note that the rules may imply that you must swap with another player, but in fact you ARE allowed to play in the King's Camp to protect your own turn order.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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My apologies on the King's Camp issue. I still feel that there is an issue with the Kingmaking on the last turn, as the situation outlined above (X=Y) has come up for at least one player (and often multiple) in every 5 player game I have played.
 
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Klure Junior
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Vanish wrote:
My apologies on the King's Camp issue. I still feel that there is an issue with the Kingmaking on the last turn, as the situation outlined above (X=Y) has come up for at least one player (and often multiple) in every 5 player game I have played.


It is only an issue if you don't find a way to go last and ensure your victory.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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A friend of mine said, in reference to kingmaking in Vinci, "The point is to be so far ahead that nobody can kingmaker you out of the win!"
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matt tolman
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Vanish wrote:
My apologies on the King's Camp issue. I still feel that there is an issue with the Kingmaking on the last turn, as the situation outlined above (X=Y) has come up for at least one player (and often multiple) in every 5 player game I have played.


Every point you get is because of kingmaking in this game. If you have a problem with kingmaking, this is not a game you can sustainably enjoy, much like small world. I used to think King Making was a flaw, but it seems it's more of a taste thing. Many people enjoy gameplay that revolves around it, as small world and this game show.
 
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Klure Junior
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sedjtroll wrote:
A friend of mine said, in reference to kingmaking in Vinci, "The point is to be so far ahead that nobody can kingmaker you out of the win!"



THIS.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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klurejr wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
A friend of mine said, in reference to kingmaking in Vinci, "The point is to be so far ahead that nobody can kingmaker you out of the win!"


THIS.


You must play with terrible players? The scoring in Belfort is super tight. In a 5 player game you probably should not have more than 12 points in a scoring round.

I have yet to be kingmaker'd out of a win in Belfort, so I don't want people thinking this is a QQ thread. If your belief is that yes, there is kingmaking on that last turn of Belfort, be prepared for it, that's fine, you've proven my point. In most other game I've played, people despise kingmaking, and thats when there is the option of it occurring. There are scenarios in Belfort where it is forced, and I feel people need to be aware of that.
 
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Jason Rupp
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When you have area control you'll have a little bit of kingmaking. It's part of the game.

You need to put yourself in a position to discourage people making these decisions. If you only hold the majority by a single house in an area, you are inviting someone else to overtake you. They may be out of the game already (for first place) but I don't have a problem with them trying to gain more points and overtake you. Now, if you added another house to that district they may be more inclined to go after your competition instead. It also helps if you know the players you're against as well. If they are inclined to take things personally and defend their spots at all costs, you may want to avoid conflict with them.

A bit off-topic but many people mention going last during the last turn. There are pros and cons to that. Yes, you'll know what the board looks like but also, you'll have fewer choices. This decision really depends on the board layout. It is not always a good move. In my only game, the 2nd place player (only down 1 point after 2nd scoring round) tried going last and it backfired big time on him. I overtook him in the most important region (and filled up the district cards he was hoping to play). He ended up losing his majority there and playing in a district that did him no good. There are pros and cons to both sides :)
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rrrrupp wrote:
When you have area control you'll have a little bit of kingmaking. It's part of the game.


Wish you would have seen this thread first. This is the only answer it needed. Yes there is a hint of king making. Not a ton but it's there. Probably play a more indirect conflict driven euro if you're not a fan of the mechanic. I personally like it, even though I think the kingmaking of the last two turns is where the AP issues of the game come in to play.
 
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