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Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Help me understand Kickstarter hate rss

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Eric Johnson
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I’m baffled by the logic of those who want to complain about a new funding option for a hobby we ALL love.

Here are the arguments I see most prevalent:

I don’t support Kickstarter projects because__________.

Great! Don’t support it. I don’t drink Dr. Pepper.

The Publisher acts as a Gatekeeper protecting us from all those horrible game ideas and terrible mechanics.

I see games in almost all gamer's lists with games from established publishers as low as 1 or 2. Take a good look at the games rated on BGG and you’ll see a high percentage of average to awful games somehow making it through these gatekeepers.

If the game was good, it would get published anyway.

Game Publishers are inundated with ideas, good and bad. A game needs to somehow pique their interest for them to even bother reading about it, let alone playtest it for a second. If the theme doesn’t appeal, or the mechanics aren’t to his/her taste, they’ll dismiss it in seconds. If it doesn’t fit their current direction... it gets shoved aside. If they can’t take on another game this year... bye, bye. If they even think for a moment that it will be too expensive to manufacture... oh,oh... bye, bye. You’ll never see it. Many publishers only want ideas from established designers... enjoy that Catch 22.

There are already plenty of other good games to buy.

Yes. So, even publishers should stop making games with this logic. Correct?

Kickstarter is diluting the quality of games.

This goes back to the gatekeeper idea. Everyone should trust and accept the 20 or so people making final marketing decisions on what games get produced? I think Hasbro is the single most responsible entity diluting game quality, and they are a PUBLISHER.

The designer/publisher should take all the risks.

I think the designer still takes a risk by putting in their sweat-equity. Remember, a bank is what ultimately takes the risk on a business, and they are insured. Failed business attempts come out of our pockets in the form of bank-fees and taxes. If a Kickstarter project supporter is careful to not support a game that isn't fully defined and refined, they can minimize their personal risk. Risk is spread out, to avoid catastrophe.

Conclusion

Ultimately, Kickstarter provides a consumer-driven publishing avenue for designers and small publishers. Some bad games will get published, but a lot of bad games have not made funding (a fact that may not be understood by the Anti-Kickstarter contingent). Eventually, after supporting a few clunkers, supporters will start requiring more refined rule-books, art, mechanics, and quality assurance before backing a project. The quality should go up as the process is refined.

I think nothing but good can come from a consumer-driven funding model over time. It will provide another avenue for designers to be seen. It will put pressure on publishers to pay more attention to designs and designers they dismissed or underpaid in the past. It may cut out bank loans to some degree (speculative production requires capital). It gives the consumer a voice in what they purchase, and may become more prevalent over time.

I understand not wanting to take a chance on a game at Kickstater. What I don’t understand are those who don’t seem to be able to accept another point of view.

Question for Kickstarter skeptics

Is there a change to the Kickstarter process that would work in your mind, where it currently does not?

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention is that several projects I've supported have actually asked for backer input into changes they might like to see. I think this is another example of where consumer funding could benefit the consumer in the long run.
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G Schulteis
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Tell me more about your Dr. Pepper hate.
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ericbjohnson wrote:
...I don’t drink Dr. Pepper...

I'm sorry; I stopped reading, here. I mean really, there's just no point in talking to people like you.
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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You lost me at baffled.
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Eric Johnson
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thechairman wrote:
Tell me more about your Dr. Pepper hate.


I don't hate Dr. Pepper, but if you described it as having "23 flavors in one drink" on Kickstarter, I definitely wouldn't support it.

yuk
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Paul DeStefano
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ericbjohnson wrote:

Here are the arguments I see most prevalent:

I don’t support Kickstarter projects because__________.

Great! Don’t support it. I don’t drink Dr. Pepper.



As this is a gaming forum site, speaking about and learning about who likes or doesn't like what in games and the industry is the purpose of the forums.

On some music sites posters adore Justin Beiber. On others they hate him. The entertainment is in the exchange of ideas and information. There is no 'right'. Just sharing views.

Which is what the internet is best at.

Edit: SECOND best at.
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Eric Johnson
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rumble wrote:
You lost me at baffled.


I'm glad.
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jflartner
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Holmes! wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:
...I don’t drink Dr. Pepper...

I'm sorry; I stopped reading, here. I mean really, there's just no point in talking to people like you.


I have to agree with both of the above comments. REALLY?? Have you ever even tried it?? scumbag. =p


23 Flavors!!!!!


edit: in actual contribution to this thread, I recently had a pretty lengthy debate on the topic with Jeff from The Gaming Gang:
Check it out here! (If you're interested in long, boring conversations between a podcast host and a boring guy from Philly)
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rumble wrote:
You lost me at baffled.

No worries, Eric; I can help with this one.

Mr. rumble, by "baffle", he means this:


Not this:
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Eric Johnson
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Geosphere wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:

Here are the arguments I see most prevalent:

I don’t support Kickstarter projects because__________.

Great! Don’t support it. I don’t drink Dr. Pepper.



As this is a gaming forum site, speaking about and learning about who likes or doesn't like what in games and the industry is the purpose of the forums.

On some music sites posters adore Justin Beiber. On others they7 hate him. They7 entertainment is in the exchange of ideas and information. There is no 'right'. Just sharing views.

Which is what the internet is best at.

Edit: SECOND best at.


I completely agree. However, we are talking about a funding source for games. It's not really a taste thing. I understand not wanting to buy a game through Kickstarter. I don't understand not wanting it to exist... as some seem to question. Justin Beiber's existence should be questioned.

What is the first best?
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Harald Korneliussen
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Yeah, I don't understand it either. I mean, I have seen some very promising games at Kickstarter, and some very dubious ones. A few of the dubious ones went on to get funding. Party games that look like they will degenerate into popularity contests/nuclear meltdown between the players, unoriginal themes and mechanics, "semi-cooperative" games that IME never work well, but here's the clincher: not from me. Someone wanted it. More power to them.
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Eric Johnson
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vintermann wrote:
Yeah, I don't understand it either. I mean, I have seen some very promising games at Kickstarter, and some very dubious ones. A few of the dubious ones went on to get funding. Party games that look like they will degenerate into popularity contests/nuclear meltdown between the players, unoriginal themes and mechanics, "semi-cooperative" games that IME never work well, but here's the clincher: not from me. Someone wanted it. More power to them.


Yeah, I guess that's my main complaint with the complaints. If you don't want to use Kickstarter, don't. If you don't like the game, don't support it.

We can't stop people from walking into Target and buying copy after copy of Monopoly this Christmas. I don't see people on here complaining about Target.

Target is diluting the game industry!!!! (there, now someone has done it).

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Caleb
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ericbjohnson wrote:
Justin Beiber's existence should be questioned.




On the contrary; questioning Justin Bieber's existence is a mark of the truly sane.

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Eric Johnson
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cannoneer wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:
Justin Beiber's existence should be questioned.




On the contrary; questioning Justin Bieber's existence is a mark of the truly sane.



I agree?
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Caleb
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ericbjohnson wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:
Justin Beiber's existence should be questioned.




On the contrary; questioning Justin Bieber's existence is a mark of the truly sane.



I agree?



You got it
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Paul DeStefano
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ericbjohnson wrote:

We can't stop people from walking into Target and buying copy after copy of Monopoly this Christmas. I don't see people on here complaining about Target.

Target is diluting the game industry!!!! (there, now someone has done it).



There has been (no joke) AT LEAST two threads concerning this very topic in recent months.

They dealt with the box stores making it harder for FLGSs to survive, which would make it harder to get the more niche games.

I'm on an ipod and cant search for the threads though.
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Paul DeStefano
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ericbjohnson wrote:
I don't understand not wanting it to exist... as some seem to question.


I'm not one of those people, so you will have to wait for one to show up.
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J T
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I notice a lot of the "hate" (probably much too strong a word imo) comes from other game designers. No this is not based on an in depth study of who hates what just a general impression from reading "those threads". I think it might be because a lot of designers did have to go through many trials and hardships to get their game to market. Now kickstarter comes along and is seemingly making it easy for would-be game designers to skip a lot of the hurdles they had to go through. The idea that someone is getting a 'free ride' can really get under people's skin. Note that I am not saying anyone is right or wrong here - everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it.

I would, however, take issue with anyone who tried to say one method (i.e. Kickstarter) should be eliminated unless there could be proven some kind of harmful effect (i.e. people starting KS products with no intention of following through and keeping the money). I would hope the KS founders have some way in place already to protect people from this kind of behaviour.
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Rich Shipley
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I haven't been tempted by anything I've heard about on kickstarter yet.

I have participated in various P500 type programs by GMT, MMP, etc. I was comfortable with their track record and knew something about the game, designer, and/or developer ahead of time.

If there was a game on Kickstarter from a designer I knew, or being developed by someone I trusted, or was something I had played and liked in another form (print & play maybe) I might be interested.
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Martin Larouche
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cannoneer wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:
Justin Beiber's existence should be questioned.




On the contrary; questioning Justin Bieber's existence is a mark of the truly sane.



I don't question Mr. Bieber's existence. See, this is how it went:
A little mommy met a little daddy. They played some Busen Memo. Maybe some Titty Grab and a little Bieber they called Justin came into being, thereby making his existence a fact and not really the subject of a question.

I am not trully sane because i don't question his existence?

whistle devil

On topic, i learned a long time ago that people complain about anything and everything and will justify their complaints by any means necessary. That's all that's required to complain about the very existence of Kickstarter.
Some will say the sky is blue... someone will come and complain that because of smog in their city, the sky is orange and that the phrase shouldn't exist because it's not always true. Thing is, that person is going to be very vocal about it, making it seems like most people adhere to that way of thinking.
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Geosphere wrote:
There has been (no joke) AT LEAST two threads concerning this very topic in recent months.


I'm still waiting for the justification for the high prices of boardgames, given how inefficient the pricing scheme is. The retailer buys from the distributor at a 50% discount, after the distributor buys from the publisher at a 50% discount. That means that expensive $80 game is theoretically a $20 one. *Anything* to reduce this inefficiency in pricing -- be it, Kickstarter, OLGS, or PnP -- is fine by me.
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Eric Johnson
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PollutedMonkey wrote:
ericbjohnson wrote:
I completely agree. However, we are talking about a funding source for games. It's not really a taste thing. I understand not wanting to buy a game through Kickstarter. I don't understand not wanting it to exist...


Does it matter though? I don't see why the Kickstarter haters would get to decide whether Kickstarter should go on.


Nope. Nothing on this board actually matters much. I just enjoy participating.

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Milvus
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It seems fashionable at the moment to right at length about what you don't like or "understand" rather than what you do.

e.g. Please help me understand why you do things that you like but I dislike?
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Eric Johnson
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Sam and Max wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
There has been (no joke) AT LEAST two threads concerning this very topic in recent months.


I'm still waiting for the justification for the high prices of boardgames, given how inefficient the pricing scheme is. The retailer buys from the distributor at a 50% discount, after the distributor buys from the publisher at a 50% discount. That means that expensive $80 game is theoretically a $20 one. *Anything* to reduce this inefficiency in pricing -- be it, Kickstarter, OLGS, or PnP -- is fine by me.


For printing and manufacturing, the cost goes down the more you do at one time. The more niche a game is, the higher the price will be. Distributors are going to treat it the same way. Distributing just a few copies of an item is going to cost more per item. A retailer is going to put their normal markup on a game based on supply and demand.

Kickstarter could bring the price down with enough backers.
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Eric Johnson
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awp243 wrote:
It seems fashionable at the moment to right at length about what you don't like or "understand" rather than what you do.

e.g. Please help me understand why you do things that you like but I dislike?


It's nature or nurture I'm sure.
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