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Subject: FATAL FRAME? rss

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T. K.
Taiwan
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After reading the rules, I found out that this game is VERY, VERY similar to FATAL FRAME: The Card Game (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22329/fatal-frame-the-car...)

I haven't play this game yet. But by those rules&pics, I feel this FATAL FRAME with only different graphics. Well, I might be wrong.
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Anders Pedersen
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They look almost identical, indeed.
I have been reading most of the rules with the Fatal Frame rulebook by my side. It appears they have even lifted a lot of the rules straight from the original material. The camera is now a book and the ghosts have different names, but almost everything else appear identical!
The first combat example even has the same powerlevels on the ghosts.

I'll send the author of the Fatal Frame game a geekmail to make him take a look...
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Coen Velden
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http://www.facebook.com/pages/-Haunted-Village-Board-Game/16...

For Fatal Flames!
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Igor Krasnodymov
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Coenst wrote:

Soon I will tired about this.
Author of Fatal Frame knows it. So stop trolling.
 
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T. K.
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And that makes you right?

People, please visit here, perhaps we can make the BGG admins do something about it.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/750102/plagiarism-attent...
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T. B.
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IKrasnodymov wrote:
Coenst wrote:

Soon I will tired about this.
Author of Fatal Frame knows it. So stop trolling.


He knows about it? Does he endorse it? How come his name isn't on the product?

Edit: From the Drake's Flames blog (http://drakesflames.blogspot.com/2012/01/rip-off-game-review...:

Quote:
Important note: I did email both the creator of the game and the Russian game thieves. I have verified the contents of this review, though of course the unoriginal foreign bastards said the original guy knew all about it. He did know all about it - after the game was printed and sold. And Fourhman isn't credited anywhere, because the Russians were apparently just hoping he would never find out. Sorry to blow your cover, cheaters. Now go see the dean.
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T. K.
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For newcomers, here is what Matt Drake had wrote on his review of the game:

Important note: I did email both the creator of the game and the Russian game thieves. I have verified the contents of this review, though of course the unoriginal foreign bastards said the original guy knew all about it. He did know all about it - after the game was printed and sold. And Fourhman isn't credited anywhere, because the Russians were apparently just hoping he would never find out. Sorry to blow your cover, cheaters. Now go see the dean.

Yeah, the author did know about it, AFTER.

************************
Police: Why you rape this woman?
Suspect: Well, don't call it RAPE. She knew all about it! I am not a RAPER!
Police: Oh? Really? When?
Suspect: After I did it. (proud)
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Guido Gloor
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Still, asking the BGG admins to do something about this is about as silly as asking your local FLGS to do something about it, or maybe Google...
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Joe Kundlak
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Indeed, this is not a BGG issue - it is a personal issue.

And Igor Krasnodymov?
You have lost here... on a personal and a moral level.
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Igor Krasnodymov
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Joeyeti wrote:
Indeed, this is not a BGG issue - it is a personal issue.

And Igor Krasnodymov?
You have lost here... on a personal and a moral level.

I'm ok. Just don't understand Joe's position. I think all this started coz of Matt Drake's article. So w8ing for Fatal Frame's author comments.
And not going to leave any comments just not to give ppl reasons to troll.

Thank you,
Igor.
 
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Liam
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So what part(s) of the game Did you create Igor?
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Peer Sylvester
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IKrasnodymov wrote:
Coenst wrote:

Soon I will tired about this.
Author of Fatal Frame knows it. So stop trolling.


The important question is: Do you give him royalties for his game? You dont seem to give him credit.
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Joe Fourhman
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Hi guys. I'm the person who created the Fatal Frame card game. I want you guys to know that, yes, I did not know about Haunted Village until after Mr. Krasnodymov published it. Some kind folks on BGG brought the game to my attention and I reached out to him to ask about it. I requested he put my name in the credits as primary designer and he said he would, on future printings. At the time, I wasn't even sure he had anything actually printed, aside from a demo/playtest build.

I knew when I made Fatal Frame and put it out there for free on the internet that something like this could happen. Although back in 2005, I didn't even know communities like BGG existed. I wasn't even the person who submitted the game for inclusion at BGG. I just made the game because I REALLY LIKED the Fatal Frame video game, and I wanted to share it with Fatal Frame fans (which I did, on videogame fansites). I never seriously pursued an option to re-theme the rules to an original IP and get it published. Naive, I know.

I appreciate the defense - and yes, it is presumptuous and incorrect that Mr. Krasnodymov listed himself as designer - but there's not much I can do aside from asking to be credited. I think it's a lesson learned for both of us.
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Joe Kundlak
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Thx Joe!

Legalities aside, this is simply not the way to do such things from Igor's side. You do not steal other's ideas and claim they are your own! Double shame!

I could have well made a card game version of Reef Encounter (so far in alpha version) and claim it to be my game. But I contacted Richard Breese and talked with him about it - he gave me his consent to do it... And my example was far beyond in modifications of what Igor has done.
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David H
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IKrasnodymov wrote:
Soon I will tired about this.
Author of Fatal Frame knows it. So stop trolling.


This comment is just awesome.

"Did you steal this man's TV?"
"I am tired of your question. He knows I stole the TV, so stop trolling"
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Andrey
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StocDred wrote:
there's not much I can do aside from asking to be credited.

This is the world's most influential boardgaming site with vast gamer community. If you think you were wronged, you could at least tell about it to potential buyers. If you think nobody cares, you're wrong.

StocDred wrote:
I think it's a lesson learned for both of us.

I've learned that publishing free print and play games for profit without author's consent is totally OK goo
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Peer Sylvester
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First: Thanks for your answer.

StocDred wrote:

I knew when I made Fatal Frame and put it out there for free on the internet that something like this could happen.


The sad thing is: It used to happen quite rarely. Most publishers are very carfeul not to publish anything they dont have the rights on. The risk of loosing authors and reputation was too big.

Sadly, things changed in the last years. Its partly because the scene got more international and so its quite difficult to pusuit people who plagiatise say in russia (like Zvevda or Igor) or brasil (the dancing egg ripoff). All the more its important for the communitiy and for the "good publishers" and distributers to stand behind the original authors.

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Nick King
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StocDred wrote:
Hi guys. I'm the person who created the Fatal Frame card game. I want you guys to know that, yes, I did not know about Haunted Village until after Mr. Krasnodymov published it. Some kind folks on BGG brought the game to my attention and I reached out to him to ask about it. I requested he put my name in the credits as primary designer and he said he would, on future printings. At the time, I wasn't even sure he had anything actually printed, aside from a demo/playtest build.

I knew when I made Fatal Frame and put it out there for free on the internet that something like this could happen. Although back in 2005, I didn't even know communities like BGG existed. I wasn't even the person who submitted the game for inclusion at BGG. I just made the game because I REALLY LIKED the Fatal Frame video game, and I wanted to share it with Fatal Frame fans (which I did, on videogame fansites). I never seriously pursued an option to re-theme the rules to an original IP and get it published. Naive, I know.

I appreciate the defense - and yes, it is presumptuous and incorrect that Mr. Krasnodymov listed himself as designer - but there's not much I can do aside from asking to be credited. I think it's a lesson learned for both of us.


I think you have made the correct decision. Any effort you put into trying to fight someone stealing something that is already free will just detract from the entire creation. If your game is good, people will want to play it, and they wont buy a shitty plagiarized retheme. The community will support the good guy, and you can focus on other projects, whether games or not. These threads should at least let you know that people out there care about what you create, and maybe motivate you to create more, and hopefully turn it into a published game you can see on the shelves.

It is refreshing seeing this reaction to such a terrible situation. It is difficult for someone to see their baby harmed by some idiot out there, and have to realize the effort involved in protecting it is just realistically too much compared to just putting out something newer and better.
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Joe Fourhman
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Random_Phobosis wrote:
StocDred wrote:
there's not much I can do aside from asking to be credited.

This is the world's most influential boardgaming site with vast gamer community. If you think you were wronged, you could at least tell about it to potential buyers. If you think nobody cares, you're wrong.

StocDred wrote:
I think it's a lesson learned for both of us.

I've learned that publishing free print and play games for profit without author's consent is totally OK goo


Believe me, I am FLATTERED beyond belief that multiple BBG users contacted me, having noticed the similarities between Fatal Frame and Haunted Village. I love this community for remembering my little game, and becoming so vociferous in defending my creation.

For me, the lesson is that if you expect to own something, you don't put it on the internet for free. Mr. Krasnodymov has already told me he would credit me on future printings, so we will move forward from there.
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Andrey
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StocDred wrote:
For me, the lesson is that if you expect to own something, you don't put it on the internet for free.

Look at all the guys at Design forum over there, busy developing new print and play stuff to put it up for free.
Lots of great stuff
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/70480/
is generated by the community, and you tell me that we shouldn't do it anymore?

StocDred wrote:
Mr. Krasnodymov has already told me he would credit me on future printings, so we will move forward from there.

I reckon since you're in position to make or break the game's sales at least among BGG users, you're in position to ask for royalties.
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Paul Nowak
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FYI, this is legal. Not good business sense, but legit.

From the Copyright office:

Quote:
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.


http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-desi...
 
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Jon New
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Whatever the legal ramifications might be (or not), the fact that someone has taken something and "altered" it slightly and then called it his own is particularly bad form.
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Peer Sylvester
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overtheboard wrote:
FYI, this is legal. Not good business sense, but legit.

From the Copyright office:

Quote:
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.


http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-desi...


Not the whole truth. The most famous case is the one between the "Kin Kong" and "Donkey Kong" Videogames. The former was to close to the latter in regards of gameplay and had to be drawn frm the market.
Its a case-to-case decision if the whole gameplay is considered - simple "ideas" or single mechanisms can be copied. A whole gameplay usually not (although it depends on the complexity of the design - Spot it /Dobble for example is to simple).

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Rick Vinyard
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Peerchen wrote:
Not the whole truth. The most famous case is the one between the "Kin Kong" and "Donkey Kong" Videogames. The former was to close to the latter in regards of gameplay and had to be drawn frm the market.
Its a case-to-case decision if the whole gameplay is considered - simple "ideas" or single mechanisms can be copied. A whole gameplay usually not (although it depends on the complexity of the design - Spot it /Dobble for example is to simple).

Just a correction... In Universal v. Nintendo it wasn't the gameplay that was at issue, it was the story... the characters.

Universal v. Nintendo Ruling wrote:
Donkey Kong's particular expression of a gorilla villain and a carpenter hero (with or without a fire hat) who must dodge various obstacles (whether bombs or fireballs) while climbing up ladders (whether complete or broken) and picking up prizes (umbrellas or purses) to rescue a fair-haired (whether knotted or pigtailed) hostage from the gorilla is protractible against Universal and its licensees.


It's the scenes a faire related to the game that was protected, not the mechanics. Had they "rethemed" it futher, keeping the gameplay mechanics they might have had more of a case. Consider something like Burger Time that had similar elements to Donkey Kong but wasn't a clone.

But, you're absolutely right... copyright and trademark law are fuzzy at best.
 
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Harald Mücke
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Hi!

This is Harald from www.spielmaterial.de where the English version of the game is sold.

As consequence of this situation, we have stopped the selling of the game until publisher and original author have agreed to a solution.

Greetings,
Harald
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