Xander Fulton
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When it was being debated, this was discussed extensively in RSP over here.

It has now left debate, the Senate (EDIT: and in case it wasn't clear, the House, earlier) passing the bill. Initially, the President had threatened veto based on certain language in the bill. Specifically, the requirement that the military imprison foreign nationals suspected of terrorism. Not, strangely, the 'military can imprison American citizens indefinitely' part.

Well, the Senate removed the offending bit, and added another section allowing the President to transfer any suspect from military to civilian custody at will. That appears to be all the White House wanted - the threat of veto was withdrawn. The bill has been sent to the President for signature.

Linkage for details
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Ouch. Parchment hurts when used as toilet paper. *sigh* The Bill of Rights was nice while it lasted.
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Marc P
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Sayeth McCain:
"I believe that if an American citizen joins a foreign army or a hostile force like Al-Qaeda that has declared war and organized a war against us and attacks us, that that person can be captured and detained as an enemy combatant under the law of war," the senator said.

Said McCain: "The language in this bill will not affect any Americans engaging in the pursuits of their constitutional rights."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/15/congress-poised-t...

I wish that assurance was clearly specified in the bill.
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Philip K. Dick was a visionary writer indeed...
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Is it just me or does America as of late carry the stench of the Weimar Republic? What if there is a fire in the Capital building? Will we start rounding up the usual suspects?

As of now I will not vote for Obama. He had the power to stop this and he did not because he likes having the imperial presidency passed down to him from Bush. I'm sure his successor will love it too. Like Citizens United, this will be condemned for as long as this world avoids the dystopian futures of Orwell, Huxley, and Demolition Man.

I am so pissed off right now. I feel like the whole noble experiment of 1776, which survived civil war, depression, and a whole score of lesser enemies has at last been brought low by what Jefferson feared: empire. As Franklin Pierce, one of our worst presidents said, "there's nothing left but to get drunk." I'm out for the night. I'm going to grab some beer, bitch with a friend and watch this gem.

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Moshe Callen
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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slowcorner wrote:
Sayeth McCain:
"I believe that if an American citizen joins a foreign army or a hostile force like Al-Qaeda that has declared war and organized a war against us and attacks us, that that person can be captured and detained as an enemy combatant under the law of war," the senator said.

Said McCain: "The language in this bill will not affect any Americans engaging in the pursuits of their constitutional rights."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/15/congress-poised-t...

I wish that assurance was clearly specified in the bill.

I believe that any law that can be abused will be abused. When private citizens or businesses do it, penalties can be imposed but when the gov't abuses a law no ral genuine appeal exists. This fact is precisely why Jefferson said that the price of freedom is constant vigilance.

While I do not think the US yet qualifies as a police state, I also think that everything is in place to make it into one. All that is needed now is for events to follow their natural course without interference.

May Americans have the strength, courage and wisdom to reclaim the freedom, tolerance and genuine democracy for which so many generations fought.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
This guarantees I won't vote for Obama. What a travesty.


I bet most of the liberals here still will.....
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I see you...
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qzhdad wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
This guarantees I won't vote for Obama. What a travesty.


I bet most of the liberals here still will.....


If he vetoed it, I would have been compelled to vote for him.
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whac3 wrote:


May Americans have the strength, courage and wisdom to reclaim the freedom, tolerance and genuine democracy for which so many generations fought.


Be careful what you say. Your stance here could be seen as one of possibly encouraging some kind of resistance, maybe. So, just in case you may do that in the future, we'll arrest you before you get the chance to do it. It's for your own protection of course.

Actually, probably better start being careful what you think too.
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whac3 wrote:


May Americans have the strength, courage and wisdom to reclaim the freedom, tolerance and genuine democracy for which so many generations fought.


Maybe later, we've got toys to fiddle with.
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How the fuck did it get to this? And who the fuck am I supposed to vote for now?

I guess we get to experience how it was back in the days of McCarthy.



Back in the 70's, it was so obvious how wrong McCarthyism was, and yet 40 year later, we forget history and allow this to happen all over again. We have no political memory in this nation, but have plenty of ignorant cattle willing to be led to their own destruction. Fucking maddening, it is.
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Xander Fulton
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Back in the 70's, it was so obvious how wrong McCarthyism was, and yet 40 year later, we forget history and allow this to happen all over again. We have no political memory in this nation, but have plenty of ignorant cattle willing to be led to their own destruction. Fucking maddening, it is.


Ah, so your a liberal, then.

You may have missed the memo, but the current right-wing blogosphere position is that McCarthy was doing good and important work, and it was merely the liberal elite and academics and activists who sabotaged his noble efforts to save the country from the communist spies.

Heck, here's a good one:

Quote:
...many of the radical “martyrs” of the period were hard-core Stalinists and KGB operatives. This is not speculation: it is hard and fast historical fact.


So...yeah. Apparently, there were KGB and Soviet spies everywhere, and only McCarthy could save us! If only those damn liberals hadn't stopped him...we wouldn't be living in the neo-communist leftist paradise the country was transformed into during the 1980s and toda...wait...what?!?!
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I'll refrain from bitching about the 'american citizen' thang again, and simply remark that if the president signs this, all pretense of moral high ground in the promotion of freedom around the world is definativly lost (insofar as it was still present). It is a sad day for America, and hence, the world.

I guess the terrorists do win in the end.
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Matthew Kloth
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qzhdad wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
This guarantees I won't vote for Obama. What a travesty.


I bet most of the liberals here still will.....


I'm as liberal as you can get and I'm all aboard the Ron Paul train as is a large swelling of the youth vote (as fickle as they are). I might disagree with a lot of what Ron Paul thinks but he is by far the best choice for a viable presidential choice.

Ron Paul is anti patriot act and this new shit bill. He agrees that the OWS protestors have the right to do what they're doing. He wants to end our warmongering. He wants to legalize drugs. He wants to audit the FED and punish bankers who committed fraud.

The things I don't agree with he can't do anything about or he's promised to leave alone. He's said repeatedly that he won't reduce social security or medicare or other entitlements. He can't do anything about abortion (and I don't think states choosing is the worst thing in the world). He Can't do anything about Obamacare (which I'm for keeping). And he's no worse religiously than any other presidential candidate.
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Venga2 wrote:
I guess the terrorists do win in the end.

I assume you mean the state ones. This wasn't on the agenda of any Islamists.
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hsquid wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
I guess the terrorists do win in the end.

I assume you mean the state ones. This wasn't on the agenda of any Islamists.
I don't presume to know the agenda of the Islamists. However, sowing fear is most definatly a key aim of terrorism. Causing people to limit their own freedom in trade for security as a reaction could certainly be interpreted as a sign that the immedeate goal (fear) has been achieved.

But really, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
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MusedFable wrote:
He wants to end our warmongering. He wants to audit the FED and punish bankers who committed fraud.


Which is why he wont be allowed anywhere near the presidency.
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I really hate how basic fundamental rights are extinguished by adding verbage to a defense appropriations bill. It's the same old shitty tactic of grouping it with something that makes legislators look bad to vote against it. Of course, if they had any courage they'd vote against it anyway, but we are talking about Professional Campaigners here, not true public servants.
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slowcorner wrote:
Sayeth McCain:
"I believe that if an American citizen joins a foreign army or a hostile force like Al-Qaeda that has declared war and organized a war against us and attacks us, that that person can be captured and detained as an enemy combatant under the law of war," the senator said.

Said McCain: "The language in this bill will not affect any Americans engaging in the pursuits of their constitutional rights."

I am a naturalized American citizen, formerly British. I understand where McCain is coming from. If I were to take a job with the British Government that required British citizenship then I'd forfeit my US citizenship.

I'd consider that taking up arms with a foreign power (whose aim is our detriment) is, de facto, the same thing. Thus McCain implies that such a person is to be treated without regard to the formal fact of their being a citizen of the USA.

Looked at another way, the only reason they cannot be formally stripped of US citizenship is that they have not formally become citizens of anywhere else. A terrorist's disregard for such nuances need not be allowed to give them any help!
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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nwhyman wrote:
I'd consider that taking up arms with a foreign power (whose aim is our detriment) is, de facto, the same thing. Thus McCain implies that such a person is to be treated without regard to the formal fact of their being a citizen of the USA.

"Or being suspected of taking up arms," I think you & McCain meant to add.

But, wait a minute, everybody. You're overreacting; this is practically a non-issue, because they're going to fix it:

Quote:
Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said she and several other lawmakers, including Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy, D-Vt., would introduce legislation to ensure that no U.S. citizen is held indefinitely without trial.

(I didn't look, but it's safe to assume they voted no on the defense bill, right?)
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nwhyman wrote:
Looked at another way, the only reason they cannot be formally stripped of US citizenship is that they have not formally become citizens of anywhere else. A terrorist's disregard for such nuances need not be allowed give them any help!

The bigger point is that being a citizen shouldn't be necessary to protect you from indefinite military detention without trial.

Human rights are for humans. This is not about benefits, voting or residency: citizenship is irrelevant.

Of course, citizenship is politically potent. Applying this to citizens is code for "It could happen to me". But since it will only be for "terrorists" nobody needs to worry.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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This may be the best quote from the Fox News article:

Quote:
"Those who say that we have written into law a new authority to detain American citizens until the end of hostilities are wrong," said Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich.

Citing the courts, Levin has repeatedly pointed out that a June 2004 Supreme Court decision, in a case called Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, said U.S. citizens can be detained indefinitely.

That's right, dumbasses! It's not a new authority. Pshh! (So, uhh, what I'm not clear on, then, is why it's being included in the bill. If, you know, it's not new.)
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hsquid wrote:
The bigger point is that being a citizen shouldn't be necessary to protect you from indefinite military detention without trial.
Meh. Geneva convention, human rights charter. Who gives a fuck, what kind of bleeding heart liberal pussy boy are you? *




* WARNING: sarcasm
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XanderF wrote:


Ah, so your a liberal, then.

You may have missed the memo, but the current right-wing blogosphere position is that McCarthy was doing good and important work, and it was merely the liberal elite and academics and activists who sabotaged his noble efforts to save the country from the communist spies.

Heck, here's a good one:


I looked at this and thought "Who in the world has time to come up with these cockamamie ideas? Who has time to blog about them?"

Then I realized that I am discussing said ideas in a hard to find forum on a site dealing with a hobby that the majority of the world finds antiquated. I feel marginally better that you found the original link, I suppose.
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Liam
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Not a member of Al-Qaeda, but a 23 year old kid doing his stupid and best.

Despite being an untried and unconvicted prisoner. For nine months when he was held at Quantico, Manning was forced to strip naked and wear just a smock at night, he had no bedding and was not permitted any personal items in his cell. He was kept locked up in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day in a windowless cell, and allowed only to walk in a yard on his own for that final hour. He was not allowed to do exercise in his cell and his prescription glasses were taken away from him. The guards checked him every five minutes during the day and Manning was required to respond. All visits, including those with his family or lawyer, take place in a non-contact setting. Amnesty has been told he is shackled at the wrists and legs during these visits.



That this can happen in the US to a US citizen by the US state without US citizens taking to the streets, for an outsider like I, is hard to understand.
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