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Subject: Which one to lose? rss

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Tom Stearns
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Those of you who have played the Germans can you share your decision making when it comes to choosing between the strongpoint or the infantry stacked with it to take step losses on the invasion turn?

The SP's are stronger on the attack, but I can see value in preserving as many steps of German infantry as possible.

Also, any suggestions for placement of the 352 HQ during the invasion turn? Toward Bayeu to provide combat supply there or toward the units defending the Omaha bluffs?

SPeaking fof Omaha, should more units be moved to the beach (flak, 352 and 716 inf west of PdH)?

Any other strategy tips are appreciated.
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Darrell Hanning
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On the other hand, the infantry losses contribute toward replacement factors, whereas the SP do not. On the third hand, infantry - provided they survive - are mobile.

Combat strength being the same, my personal preference is to keep the infantry, on the chance that they can be pulled back, at some point. I just don't see any beach as being defendable by the Germans for the duration, so anything static is a goner, eventually, whereas something mobile has a chance.
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Paul Franklin
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I went with losing steps from the infantry since they can now be used to rebuild other units at a more advantageous position and time. The SPs are going to get bulldozed, true, but they can maybe hold out for just a bit longer and then they are done.

More towards Omaha bluffs because Bayeux is a supply point for the Germans.

If you're playing the first scenario, I didn't see much point in moving a lot of units westward. The only viable unit on the beach there is the Rangers, and they can be held back for a while if needed. That was my strategy so far. I did move some units up to pin down the Rangers though.
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Tom Stearns
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Thanks for the replies. I'm playing the campaign game. When I play a monster I play the whole sha-bang.

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david heller
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I mix it up killing sp's and infantry co's depending on how things are going on the beach. If the germans are doing poorly defending a beach I try to keep the co's to pull back because you must hold onto Bayue as long as possible and of course Caen. Omaha is usually no problem for the Germans but Bayue is the Key for German success the first two days. If you can hold it the British aren't going to advance to far. The most important things for the Allies are good weather and blow those Caen bridges asap!!! If you can slow down 12SS and Lehr you can do well with the British. I once took Coumont on the morning of the 8th. Thats the best I have done, which is about 2-3 days earlier than what actually happaned in history. I have also been still tying to take Bayue on the 15th, while Panzer Lehr distroyed 6th Airborne. Weather and the Bridges!!! I mainly use my Air Armed Recon to distroy lots of bridges. Slow the German reinforcements as much as possible and the Allies can do well. I am playing now and it is the 17th turn, I have just about got Cherbourg but didnt quite take Coumont. I have never taken Caen.
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Tom Stearns
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Thanks David. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

I am on the PM turn of June 7 and I rolled heavy rain for the 7th. No air except for some ground support (using solo air rules). Bridges are all intact at this point.

I ended up doing kind of what you suggested. A mix of infantry and SP step losses depending on how the beach was going.

Omaha is quite a stressful beach as in reality. But once it starts to crater it goes fast. Thank goodness for those Navy boys.
 
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david heller
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Glad to share. I also attack alot with the allies using multi-hex attacks against one hex at half strength with no support to save supply points as they are the limiting factor for the allies later on. Got to get those mullberries going asap. I usually run very low by the 11th or 12th. on supply. I pay to use the navy on every beach except Utah as it is a good deal to help move inland fast. I hate Omaha, it uses up so much supply just to avoid attacking at 1-2 odds or worse, but the Big Red One usually gets off and can link up with the British for the push on Bayue. I served with it from 1985-89. What actually happaned was that the 1st took Coumont by the 10th of June due to a gap in the German lines which on the 11th British 7th Arm. then tried to exploit east to Villers Bocage but was stopped by the 14th of June due to a counterattack by the 101ss tiger battalion. This game turns into a war of attrition after the first week I have also noticed.
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Tom Stearns
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I hadn't even considered attacking without supply to save it. I'll have to look at that closer. The supply does run down quick.

I'm going to take pictures and post in a new thread after I finish the 7th. I have done ongoing AAR's and pics with some other games, most notably Wacht Am Rhein.
 
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david heller
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Oh, another thing I have noticed is for the German player those engineers are VITAL!!! Build all the fortifications you can and blow those bridges when you need to. Blow them especially on the Cotentin when the allies break out to Cherbourg. They don't need to be in supply to do their job, I don't think???
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Tom Stearns
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Hey David you use Vassal at all? If so send me a message sometime if yu want to play a game of BfN using Vassal.
 
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david heller
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I have heard that Whach am rhein is a very complicated game. I like Battle for Norm. because eventhough it is a fairly large game it is very simple to play as far as the rules.
 
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david heller
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No I don't have Vassel. I have a couple friends I sometimes play against with other smaller games. Do you have the expansion kit for BFN? If so is it worth getting?
 
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Tom Stearns
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Wacht Am Rhien has a steep learning curve, but once you are playing it becomes more intuitive and isn't difficult. It is massive maps and counters. Both of which by the way are gorgeous. Spent better part of a year playing it solo and with some long distance help from friend Steve Arthur in Australia. I have played Longest Day going back 20 years so BfN isn't intimidating at all. The map size is similar and the counter density is less. The rules of BfN though are what seal the deal for me. The invasion turn is awesome. I'm playing Longest Day and BfN at the same time right now (using vassal live with others) and hands down BfN is the better game in how it handles supply, HQ's, invasion and air.
 
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Tom Stearns
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Expansion is still Pre-order phase. I have it on P500 list. I think it should be worth getting to be able to play out battle for France. The additional maps may make it the largest game I have to date.
 
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david heller
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Thanks for the Info.
 
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Erik Merchant
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Just played the campaign game over the break between Christmas and New Years as the west side (Bayeux west) Germans and from my experience I would say to lose the company steps and keep the strong points. My SPs caused 12 step losses on the first landing phase, and 4 more the next (I rolled badly). Those companies would have been difficult to keep alive to reform into larger units and have almost no probability of causing Allied losses. I had SPs survive all the way to the 11th before isolation caused their loss. They blocked movement and were a general PITA for the US player. He also wasted several bombardments and air attacks trying to clear them...a valuable distraction for the Germans.

We (each side had two players) decided to move the 352nd to support Bayeux and used 30th and 17th SS to secure Isigny bridges. Blew all the bridges crossing the Vire and approaches to St. Lo as well. We got lucky with coastal guns and actually managed to score 3 hits on naval units...mines took two others when they moved to re-adjust. Not a pretty invasion for the allies, all in all. Defeat was certain for us Germans, but we surely bloodied them and I felt we did about as well as we could.
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Tom Stearns
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Having a few more turns under my belt I have to agree saving SP's as long as possible is better strategy. The company units are just too weak.

I also agree with 352nd Div defending Bayuex. In most Normandy Campaign games the Americans can make decent headway going directly south from the beach, making taking Bayeux and Isigny right away less important. In BfN the terrain and lack of good north-south roads directly south of the beach makes Bayeux and Isigny vital. The main roads and highways at those towns are vital to supplying American units bound for St Lo. The area south of the beach can be filled by the 30th indep formation as well as Pz Lehr. Isigny has always been a good place for 17SS in whatever Normandy game Ive played.

I have rolled two consecutive turns of heavy rain, delaying allied progress enough for 12SS and Pz Lehr to be able to occuppy good locations. This game will be a dog fight for the allies.
 
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Rusty Coleman
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I look at the Germans units as potential step losses more than anything else. If you put them with the SPs then you prolong the death of the SP so don't waste them on weak SPs unless you are doing a good job of bottling the allies up on the beach. On the CW beaches, it won't be possible to hold off the CW for long and if you make a stand on the beach (like at Omaha) you could wind up with open/unchallenged terrain for the Allies until reinforcments arrive. At the CW beaches you might want to do a defense in depth, creating company units that will get blown away to delay the Allies long enough for reinforcments to arrive. Keep German HQs and artillery in the same hex or adjacent to flak units along with a couple of sacrificial companies.
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Erik Merchant
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One important thing to remember: can't give up those victory point locations too soon or the Allies can pull out an instant June 9th win. I actually think this is the easiest way for the allies to win and it should be their #1 priority, sacrificing the long game for the early win. Fail, and the Germans should be able to hold the peninsula long enough to ensure a win.

We almost forgot to keep track of this vital point and ended up needing a frantic defensive hold in Montebourg to keep the allies from having sufficient points on the 9th. Play with too much long term strategy and lose the short term...I nearly lived that.

We got weather on our side too...and it made a huge difference. Wreck a Mulbery and German victory is very possible.
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