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Subject: Corrupt Judge rss

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Current version:
Action-Attack
+1 Action, +$2
Each other player with at least 5 cards in his hand may discard an Action or Treasure card costing at least $6, and if he doesn't, he reveals his hand and trashes his least expensive card other than a Curse. +$1 per Copper and Estate trashed this way.
Cost: $5


Specific rules (will change as needed): (1) If Throne Room or King's Court is played with the a Corrupt Judge, it only attacks once. If a Golem draws a Corrupt Judge and one has already been played, the second (or more) attack does absolutely nothing. There is no way to circumvent the initial condition. However, if they play an Outpost, this is a second turn, and they could play another Corrupt Judge if they draw one. (2) If there are multiple cards of the same cost, such as a Silver and a Chancellor, he or she can choose which one to trash. (3) If there is a Highway in play or something else that affects the cards' cost, that takes effect here. Ex., if there are two Highways in play, an attacked player may either trash a Cellar or a Copper if they've got both. But discarding a Gold would not stop this, as it would only be worth $4. (5) Curses are essentially not present at all for the purpose of this attack. If a player's hand consists of a Curse and other cards, the card trashed must be one of the other cards. If his or her hand is nothing but Curses, he or she trashes nothing.

This is a card idea I've been working on for awhile. It's largely the same since its original form; the only question has been how to work the bonuses and whether it gets a +1 Action.

The "If no other Corrupt Judge" clause should be pretty obvious. Otherwise, you could king's court this thing and destroy your opponents' decks. I originally had at the end, "Only one Corrupt Judge may be played each turn, regardless of any other card." But this had three problems: (1) What if a future card comes out that overrides text such as these? (2) How would this interact with Golem, King's Court, and Throne Room? (3) It's just too wordy.

A little background--I built this card around a theme: A corrupt judge likes to use his power to destroy anyone that stands in front of him, but he can be bought off with a bribe. And he doesn't want to just destroy crap (i.e., curses); destruction has to be *real*. That minimum "bribe" started at $6 or more, but I lowered it to $5 or more to include more options. Whether this is too strong of a nerf will only be revealed by future playtesting (yes, I have playtested this card a couple times).

In practice, I think the attack will start fairly mild--you lose a copper or perhaps an estate from your hand, which isn't too bad--but it grows stronger as the game goes on. The discard-an-expensive-treasure option alleviates that somewhat, but if you are reasonably certain that there's only a turn or two left, having to discard a gold vs. trash a jester is not a great option. Speaking of jester, I think that corrupt judges and jesters would clash pretty hard in the same deck. Either weed out cards or give cards, but don't play two attacks that basically counter one another.

Thoughts on the $5-vs-$6 minimum? Also, I had thought about giving it a +1 Action, but I'm reasonably certain this would make the card too strong. Of all the 25 attack cards in Dominion, only four of them give +1 Action (none give more), and of those, only the Familiar has what would be considered a strong attack. I like this, because I think this forces the would-be attacker to think if the attack would really be worth it, rather than just making it an automatic decision to attack.
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J
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Seems pretty weak. Early game his attack is probably gonna be nothing more than a weak Cutpurse.

Later good players might lose some silver but by then you've helped them thin their deck out so they probably will have much stronger cards and not really care.

He's only really good against heavy deck thinning strategies however in a 4-6 player game if everyone is playing him he'll probably completely take the game apart.
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Morgan Dontanville
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Yuck.
 
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Andrew Lieffring
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allstar64 wrote:
Seems pretty weak. Early game his attack is probably gonna be nothing more than a weak Cutpurse.


Cutpurse is a decent attack because the target discards the copper. Change the discard to trash and it isn't an attack anymore, it's a bonus to your opponents as a check on the card's power (e.g. Bishop)
 
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Kevin Costello
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The one per turn limit helps in 2-player games, but in 3-6 player games, this still has the potential to almost completely chew up a hand. Would probably be better off ditching the explicit once per turn and just having it only work for hands of 5 or more cards.

Also, in a 2-player game, it feels super weak. Only seems really powerful in super action heavy games with trashing.

Might be more interesting if you can discard a silver. In most games, 5+ still pretty much just means gold.

Also, I'm not a fan of straight up trashing a card. Its usually going to be a bonus, not a penalty, but in some unlucky cases it will be incredibly nasty. Changing it to some kind of saboteur effect might give you more flexibility in balancing the card. Also, you could consider it acting on the top of your deck instead of your hand. Just some possibilities...
 
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J
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
Seems pretty weak. Early game his attack is probably gonna be nothing more than a weak Cutpurse.


Cutpurse is a decent attack because the target discards the copper. Change the discard to trash and it isn't an attack anymore, it's a bonus to your opponents as a check on the card's power (e.g. Bishop)


Yes I know, I was trying to be as positive as I possibly could when accessing the card.

Since early game it would probably do nothing more than remove a copper from from your opponent's hand and hurt their buying power I compared it to cutpurse. As I said it's a weak version of it because:

IncompleteUserNa wrote:
Change the discard to trash and... it's a bonus to your opponents as a check on the card's power (e.g. Bishop)


It's still an attack because you aren't giving your opponent a choice like Bishop does and you could in theory screw up their buy by by trashing you are probably going to end up helping them a lot more than hurting them.
 
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Tables
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I would love my opponents to buy this. 90% of the time it's going to help me, by trashing my coppers and estates. By the time it actually starts to hurt me, my deck will be so far ahead that I won't even care anymore.

In multiplayer this could actually begin to hurt though. Being hit by two or three of these can get really nasty (bear in mind, the condition on one per turn would only stop one person playing multiple). But just like Saboteur, I don't think it'll happen in general, because improving your own deck is generally more beneficial than gambling on others buying these just so they can possible start hurting.

Overall this card has some serious problems.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. Based on that and a few other thoughts I had, I revised it to:

"+$2
Each other player with at least 5 cards in his hand may discard a Treasure card costing at least $5, and if he doesn't, he reveals his hand and trashes his least expensive card other than a Curse. If a Copper or Estate is trashed this way, +$2; otherwise, +1 Action.
Cost: $5"

Which essentially turns it into a supercharged Moneylender for the attacking player, with the tradeoff of helping opponents trash their coppers and estates. I thought about making that bonus +$1 per copper and estate trashed, but that seemed too weak of a marginal benefit.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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If you insist on not changing the card too much, I recommend that the opponents have the option to discard -any- $5 card to bribe the Judge. As mentioned above, in most cases, a $5-or-more Treasure is going to include exactly Gold. Judges can be bribed with more than just money. Favors, land, etc should be sufficient.

Besides, if you are caught without any Gold in your hand and all three of your opponents play a Judge that turn, you'll quickly lose enough of your hand that you cannot ever afford a Gold quicker than everyone else will trash whatever you do manage to buy, keeping you from ever getting anywhere--especially if there are no +Buys to even amass enough Copper to afford to replace all your trashed Silver on a prayer that enough turns elapse that no-one plays a Judge. Meanwhile, the one that gets ahead in this crazy race to out-Judge the rest can just grab a Duchy and wait until everyone else empties enough $2-$3 cards that the game ends on a really lame win: 3-0-0-0.

Consider: Even the ridiculous Swindler eventually turns Curses back into Coppers so people can start playing the game after a pile empties. The Judge doesn't have enough of a catch to prevent him from burning every card that belongs to another player without chance of recovery. But, on the other hand, I guess a Judge can sentence a victim to life in prison so maybe it fits thematically.

It may make purchasing this card somewhat less attractive but you can toy with the following . . .

Make it a Duration for one turn and while it is play, no other Corrupt Judges can be played by anyone. This prevents more than one between any player's turn, no matter how many opponents, barring combos with Possessions or Outposts (not a big concern). A single player cannot use it twice in a row this way before an opponent has the opportunity to do so. If it is worded correctly, it won't even work with Throne Rooms (etc) or maybe that's okay since it is the only way which more than one can strike at a time and even then it is capped at three at once.

You can also make the Judge his own defense by making it a Duration but allowing it to be played no matter if another is in play -but- that playing it has no effect while another is in play. That way, so long as you and your opponent(s) keep playing Judges every turn, no-one is hurt by it but even if someone gets one attack through, it only can hit once per round of play, as above.

Keep at it. The card doesn't suck but it does cause scaling issues as written above.
 
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Huh. If CJ allowed discarding of any card over a certain amount, I think that'd have to be a $6 minimum and not $5 minimum, because it'd be just too easy to get a duchy or some of the weaker $5 actions, and just discard it. There needs to be a *punch* to the attack, which seems to be my biggest struggle with this card.
 
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Kevin Costello
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toll_booth wrote:
Huh. If CJ allowed discarding of any card over a certain amount, I think that'd have to be a $6 minimum and not $5 minimum, because it'd be just too easy to get a duchy or some of the weaker $5 actions, and just discard it. There needs to be a *punch* to the attack, which seems to be my biggest struggle with this card.


Well, you already specify no curses. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to prohibit victory cards as well. Sure, its not the intended interaction with hybrid victory cards, but cards like Fortune Teller and rabble have the same "problem".

You could also keep it as treasure only, but allow down to 3 so silvers could be used. "Making" your opponent discard a silver (by threatening something worse) is still a pretty nasty attack.
 
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Hmm, no curses OR victory cards. Which means actions and treasures, not including any hybrid cards. So if CJ hit the least expensive action or treasure, losing anything other than a copper could be a pretty serious loss. The question would be, then, which way to go: no curses/victories, or only actions/treasures. In order for hybrids not to be immune (I'm particularly thinking about Great Hall), I'd reckon to go with the latter.

And don't forget that this trashes from the hand, not the top of the deck, so it's almost like a discard as well.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I don't see why a Judge, corrupt enough, cannot be bribed with land. A nice Duchy or Farmlands should suffice. Let's not forget that even Pirates and Thieves miss sometimes. All too often, a Militia just causes a player to discard useless cards. A Ghost Ship may even help someone to set up a combo.

I think the reason that you are stuggling with the card being too wordy is because you are trying to make it hurt in every possible situation. Attacks in Dominion just aren't built that way. Sometimes, it really helps. I'm looking at you, Library vs Torturer!
 
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Changed the discarding option to treasure or action, not just treasure. As realistic as discarding a province might be, I think that would nerf the attack. I'm not looking to make a super-strong attack, a la torturer + any village. But I don't want it to be bureaucrat-weak either, and I think that's what the original version of the card did.
 
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