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Subject: Sideburns' Custom Cards rss

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Mike M
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Gambling House ($3) Action

Roll a six-sided die.
1 = Gain a Curse and a Copper
2 = Gain a card costing up to 2
3 = Gain a card costing up to 3
4 = Gain a card costing up to 4
5 = Gain a card costing up to 5
6 = +1 VP and a Gold
---------------------------------
Image from wikimedia commons (Public Domain)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pieter_Quast_Soldiers_Gamb...


Piggy Bank ($2) Action - Duration

You may have only one Piggy Bank in play at a time.
During clean-up, add a token to this card if you have any un-spent Coins.
You may trash this card at any time. If you do, +1 Coin per token on it.
(Piggy Bank stays in play indefinitely until you decide to trash it)
---------------------------------
Image found at http://carolmarine.blogspot.com/2009/02/water-break.html.



Royal Jewels ($7) - Treasure - Victory

Worth $3
Worth 1 VP
---------------------------------
Image found at http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/Pieter-Gerritsz.-Van-Roestrat...




Vigilante ($3) Action - Reaction

Gain a Silver or an Estate

When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand and trash it. If you do, that player must trash all attacks in play during his clean-up step.
---------------------------------
Image found here: http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/124565/1/The-Sower-...



Graverobber's Loot ($7) Treasure-Curse

Worth $4
Worth -1 VP

Image stolen from this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/430615/fan-card-blood-money-...


Recycle ($4) Action

+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
If you do, search your discard pile for a card and add it to your hand.

Image found at http://www.chiminea.net/photos/plainboot.jpg

... More to come ...
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David Murray
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This card isn't going to be popular since it involves rolling a dice.
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Andy Andersen
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I kind of like the idea.
 
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Mike M
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Edit: Piggy Bank added to top post.
 
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Andrew Lieffring
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Piggy Bank is way too good for $1. Just ask yourself which you'd rather have: two $7 or a $6 turn and an $8 turn. The ability to directly control your variance is hugely powerful, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was fairly costed at $5.
 
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Mike M
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:
Piggy Bank is way too good for $1. Just ask yourself which you'd rather have: two $7 or a $6 turn and an $8 turn. The ability to directly control your variance is hugely powerful, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was fairly costed at $5.


Yeah, I thought for a while about the cost, but I think there are plenty of innate hidden costs in the card:
1) You can only have one in play one at a time, so buying multiples is unwise.
2) It costs a buy to acquire, so early game, you're usually sacrificing a Silver to get it.
3) It does absolutely nothing the moment it's played, and it still takes up your action for the turn.

I spent a while reading and thinking about this article here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0

I approached the cost of this card as a function of when you can/should be able to buy it, rather than an expression of its value. Early game, there is no functional difference between a $2 and $3 card, other than if you spend your $3 opening hand on a $2 card, there's a slight feeling that you're wasting some money. Costing a card at $4 only guarantees that you couldn't buy two of it with your first two hands, and a cost of 5 means you *usually* won't be able to buy one without upgrading some money first.

Given all of that, I would rather Piggy Bank be always affordable in one of your first two hands, so it could be usable after the first shuffle. A cost of anywhere from $2 to $4 would be fine in my eyes, but reducing the cost to $1 actually INCREASES the opportunity cost of purchasing the card - you're in fact wasting more money early game by spending your only buy on this card.

So yes, I agree with you completely that this card serves a function that easily conveys $5 worth of "value", and that would be a perfectly fair cost, but ask yourself what you would rather buy for $5, a Market or a card that has no immediate abilities and saves up at most $1 per turn for a future buy?

I'm certainly open to discussions on the cost, and I'd be happy to edit the image if you'd like to use it at a different cost in your own game.

Thanks for the comments; keep 'em coming.
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Thayne Weston
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Cool cards. I like the gambling house. Whats your thought on only having one of the options being negative? Granted getting a $2 isn't great, but not lots of risk with the gamble.
 
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Matrav
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sideburns wrote:
I would rather Piggy Bank be always affordable in one of your first two hands, so it could be usable after the first shuffle. A cost of anywhere from $2 to $4 would be fine in my eyes, but reducing the cost to $1 actually INCREASES the opportunity cost of purchasing the card - you're in fact wasting more money early game by spending your only buy on this card.


While that's true, and I agree no need to have multiples, remember that there is a reason why there are no $1 cards. This card costed at $1 would make Remake, Develop, Upgrade and any other card I can't think of that allows you to gain a card costing $1 more than a trashed card, significantly weaker, as you wouldn't be able to freely trash your coppers with those cards (or your Estates in the case of Develop.)

I would recommend either $2 or $3, probably the first. Given the delayed gratification and one shot nature I think this is fair. And remember, almost never will you have less than $2 in a hand, and early for a powerful but cheap terminal card (like Chapel), the buy is more important than the cost.

Also, do you intend that this card be able to stay out multiple turns? I think that's where you're going with it, certainly making it much stronger. If so you need text that states "This card is not cleaned up during any clean-up phase." Otherwise, by the rules of Duration cards, this card would be discarded the turn after you played it.
 
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Mike M
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negmon wrote:
Cool cards. I like the gambling house. Whats your thought on only having one of the options being negative? Granted getting a $2 isn't great, but not lots of risk with the gamble.


Rolling a 1 to gain a Curse and a Copper would be a seen as a double-negative by most. And rolling a 2 is a complete flop on many boards, and the gain is not optional, so there's another forced copper.

When designing this card, I compared it with Workshop. They're both $3. Workshop gains a card costing up to $4. Gambling house probably averages out to a similar value if you played it 100 times.
 
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Mike M
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matrav wrote:
Also, do you intend that this card be able to stay out multiple turns? I think that's where you're going with it, certainly making it much stronger. If so you need text that states "This card is not cleaned up during any clean-up phase." Otherwise, by the rules of Duration cards, this card would be discarded the turn after you played it.


Yes, the intention was that Piggy Bank stays out multiple turns, gaining a maximum of 1 token each turn that you have extra money. The Seaside rules for Duraction cards actually instruct you to "Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something". Which does not explicitly say 2 turns, though most cards in the expansion only have an effect for the current turn and "next turn". I was trying to keep the text to a minimum, but you may be right about needing clarification there.
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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I don't really care for rolling a die. Would rather see it incorporated with flipping the top card on your deck and if it is a Victory..., If it is a Treasure..., If it is an Action...

That way you can manipulate your odds to some degree and not introduce the die.

If you were to stick with the card as you made it. I would have a roll of "1" cost 3 curses or something more significant.
 
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Mike M
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Hockey Mask wrote:
I don't really care for rolling a die. Would rather see it incorporated with flipping the top card on your deck and if it is a Victory..., If it is a Treasure..., If it is an Action...

That way you can manipulate your odds to some degree and not introduce the die.

If you were to stick with the card as you made it. I would have a roll of "1" cost 3 curses or something more significant.


I thought about having a more significant penalty for ones, and a better reward for rolling 6, but I'd rather have the card be a slightly randomized Workshop than a source of totally random victory or defeat.

I've also been considering a slightly different gambling-type card, along these lines:

Compulsive Gambler

Perform a 50/50 random event (either coin flip or a discard-and-check-type effect, though these are easy enough to fix that this card could become broken). With a winning result, add 1 token to your Gambling mat. With a losing result, remove 1 token from your gambling mat; if you cannot, gain a curse.

Compulsive Gambler is worth 1VP for each token on your Gambling mat.

($??) Action-Victory


Anyway, that one's still in the works, and can probably get pretty stupid in the right circumstances. This one would almost have to be a purely random 50/50 chance or it would get completely out of control.

Obviously rolling a die isn't going to appeal to a lot of players, but I'm a huge nerd that plays plenty of other games that involve the use of dice, plus I'm a gamer that enjoys varying levels of randomness in all kinds of games. For example: I use random character select in most fighting games, and my favorite Dominion card is Black Market, hands down.
 
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Mike M
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Added Royal Jewels to first post. Seems pretty fair when compared to Gold and Harem.

Edit: Added Vigilante to first post. You can attack me, but I will have my revenge.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Re: Sideburns' Custom Cards
Among these, I think that Vigilante is worth keeping. I do, however, feel like it needs some bit of work. For one thing, if there are 10 of them in a stack and only one stack of 10 Attack cards, then it won't be too long before they flatline each other. I think that it would be a good idea to entertain the following:

If one Vigilante reacts to an Attack, it has some minor benefit to the user. If two are played against the same Attack, they may be trashed to trash the Attack during the Clean Up phase. Considering two can be used during the same Attack by the same player, this is fine in a 2-player game and in a multiplayer game, two different players would need to decide if they want to trash theirs to purge the Attack. It may not happen--why trash yours when you might just wait for someone else to do it?--but it provides a new way for players to interact in the game--working together.

It would need to be handled elegantly in order to actually work but it does mean that not every Attack will be trashed in time and you might just want to hang on to one or two to gain the slight benefit for all those Attacks that won't be trashed.
 
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Anthony Romeo
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On the dominionstrategy forum I created a (woefully untested) mini-expansion using dice. I'll spare a painfully long explanation, but it was part of an experiment to create a dice expansion that was as faithful to basic Dominion concepts you could get. The ultimate final rules I decided on goes as follows: When you buy a card using dice you also gain a die and put it next to your discard pile. This die is discarded. When you reshuffle, all such discarded dice are put next to your draw pile and can be rolled. After you roll a die for a card you play you can either:

- place the rolled die on top of the card; the value for the card is this amount.
- set the die aside and roll another die. You can continue doing this until you run out of dice in your draw pile.

You could also buy/gain extra dice, such that you can mitigate the effect of bad rolls. Dice were, in fact, their own supply pile (equal to the # of dice cards in the kingdom +10). I likened the dice to be an alternate currency, similar to potions.

Anyway, *I* thought it was a fun diversion.
 
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Roberta Yang
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The problem with Royal Jewels is that it doesn't add any new interesting decisions to the game. When you have $7 and would normally buy Gold, you buy Royal Jewels instead; that's all there is to it.

Harem works as a card because it splits the usual "When do I stop buying Golds and start buying Duchies?" question into two nontrivial questions: When to start buying Harems over Golds and when to start buying Duchies over Harems. But Royal Jewels is obviously better than Gold and costs only slightly more, so there is no question of when to start buying Royal Jewels over Gold - as soon as you can afford it - while the question of when to start buying Duchies remains very similar to the question of when to start buying Golds over Duchies, since Royal Jewels' mere 1 VP won't weight that decision very much. In other words, the effect of including Royal Jewels in the game is that a decision that already exists is given an extremely light weight in one direction.

It's really quite an excellent example of how being a balanced card and being a well-designed card are not the same thing at all.

Oh, and since I'm getting really tired of these stupid "Reactions that don't help the user but that do hurt the attacker" cards people keep posting, I'm not going to bother explaining why they're a terrible idea. Donald already does a fine job of that.
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Mike M
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salty53 wrote:
It's really quite an excellent example of how being a balanced card and being a well-designed card are not the same thing at all.

Oh, and since I'm getting really tired of these stupid "Reactions that don't help the user but that do hurt the attacker" cards people keep posting, I'm not going to bother explaining why they're a terrible idea. Donald already does a fine job of that.


I agree that Royal Jewels isn't exactly revolutionary, and that it becomes the obvious better-choice-than-gold-in-every-way once you hit $7. I'm not suggesting it be printed in an official set. But I don't really understand why so many people embrace the awkwardness of having $7 with only $6-cards to buy as one of the cornerstones of Dominion gameplay. Maybe $7 cards are fine, and mine is just bad? It's possible.

The Donald comments on attacks and reactions are interesting, but I don't think my "revenge" card fits neatly into the category of his. Yes, the reaction component only hurts the attacker, but in a unique way that allows the attack to happen, discourages further attacks in the same turn, and prevents those attacks from happening again. How does this not help the user? Without the reaction component, Vigilante is still a fine way to stock up on Silvers early-game, and it can grab you a couple of tie-breaker Estates in the home stretch. In my eyes, it's still playable even in a kingdom with zero attacks. Certainly won't sell out, but I'd spend my first $3 hand on one for the virtual extra buy it provides.
 
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Matrav
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salty53 wrote:


Oh, and since I'm getting really tired of these stupid "Reactions that don't help the user but that do hurt the attacker" cards people keep posting, I'm not going to bother explaining why they're a terrible idea. Donald already does a fine job of that.


Hey, let's try to keep it nice in here. Calling other people's ideas 'stupid' or 'terrible' makes you sound petty and jaded. This could have and should have been worded far more politely. It is very possible that Sideburns has not seen that post, I hadn't.

People put a lot of work into these cards and then offer them up for public criticism. That takes guts, and we as a community should respect that. If you can't say something constructive, don't post at all.
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sideburns wrote:
I agree that Royal Jewels isn't exactly revolutionary, and that it becomes the obvious better-choice-than-gold-in-every-way once you hit $7. I'm not suggesting it be printed in an official set. But I don't really understand why so many people embrace the awkwardness of having $7 with only $6-cards to buy as one of the cornerstones of Dominion gameplay. Maybe $7 cards are fine, and mine is just bad? It's possible.

Er, $7 that work are indeed possible. In fact, they exist in the official game. I recommend you actually look and see what cards already exist before designing your own.

But the key thing to note about those $7 is that, while they may cost more than Gold and have in some sense a higher power level than Gold, they are not just Gold-except-better. There are plenty of cases in which I will buy Gold over Forge. There are plenty of cases in which I will buy Gold over King's Court. In fact, there are even plenty of cases in which I will buy Gold over Bank, the $7-cost card most similar to Gold. But there are virtually no circumstances in which I will buy Gold over Royal Jewels.

But strict superiority isn't the sole deciding factor. Ask yourself this: when you look at the Kingdom card selection at the start of the game and begin to plan your strategy, how does Royal Jewels affect your decision? What new complexity, what new decisions, what new intelligence does Royal Jewels add to the game? And here's the answer: it doesn't make a single bit of difference. You'll do whatever you would do if there were only nine Kingdom stacks and Royal Jewels were not present. And that's really what makes Royal Jewels a pointless card. If it's not actually affecting gameplay, why is it there? (Technically, I suppose you could say it encourages going for Provinces rather than Duchies, but Provinces are already the more common route to victory and it gives such a mild boost to that route compared to, say, the boost Duke gives Duchies that it's really not worth mentioning.) Even if Bank were strictly stronger than Gold (which it is on some setups), its presence will still alter my playstyle; I'll never go out of my normal path in any way to acknowledge the presence of Royal Jewels.

sideburns wrote:
The Donald comments on attacks and reactions are interesting, but I don't think my "revenge" card fits neatly into the category of his.

Actually, I think you'll find it does. Let's look at your description of Vigilante and see to what extent it also describes Revenge:

sideburns wrote:
Yes, the reaction component only hurts the attacker, but in a unique way

"Unique" is subjective, but I'd call Revenge pretty unique. Actually, Revenge is even more unique; trashing cards from opponents' decks has shown up before, but negative VP tokens have not. But in any event, "unique" is not necessarily a positive quality. A $3-cost Action whose effect is "Gain all the Provinces" is doubtlessly unique and equally doubtlessly an awful card.

sideburns wrote:
that allows the attack to happen,

As does Revenge.

sideburns wrote:
discourages further attacks in the same turn,

As does Revenge - if they know every Attack they play this turn will earn them -1 VP, they'll be less inclined to play more.

sideburns wrote:
and prevents those attacks from happening again.

And to a certain extent, so does Revenge - merely seeing my opponents buy and use Revenge will make me less inclined to buy and play Attacks.

sideburns wrote:
How does this not help the user?

In exactly the same way that Revenge does not sufficiently help the user. You did read Donald's article, right?

sideburns wrote:
Without the reaction component, Vigilante is still a fine way to stock up on Silvers early-game, and it can grab you a couple of tie-breaker Estates in the home stretch. In my eyes, it's still playable even in a kingdom with zero attacks. Certainly won't sell out, but I'd spend my first $3 hand on one for the virtual extra buy it provides.

Irrelevant, as Revenge's non-Reaction effect was never defined. Slapping a fairly lame Action (yes, lame; how often has buying Workshop just to farm Silvers been a winning strategy?) onto a fundamentally flawed concept doesn't magically make the fundamental problems with that concept vanish.

matrav wrote:
Hey, let's try to keep it nice in here. Calling other people's ideas 'stupid' or 'terrible' makes you sound petty and jaded. This could have and should have been worded far more politely. It is very possible that Sideburns has not seen that post, I hadn't.

People put a lot of work into these cards and then offer them up for public criticism. That takes guts, and we as a community should respect that. If you can't say something constructive, don't post at all.

When I post material, I always prefer to have one reply saying "Here is a detailed explanation by the guy who designed the game of exactly what doesn't work about this concept" than ten posts saying "Looks awesome!!! 10/10". The former actually contributes to the discussion; the latter is merely noise. I'm sorry you don't like my tone, but it's an unavoidable fact that this concept, a) Doesn't work, and b) Has been posted countless times (much like the classic "Blood Money" - Treasure/Curse, Cost $3, Value $3, -2 VP - card that everyone seems to think is a good idea just because it looks kinda like a reverse-Harem if you squint) to the point where the repetition is just annoying. If I sound jaded by bad card design, that's only because I am.
 
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salty53 wrote:
When I post material, I always prefer to have one reply saying "Here is a detailed explanation by the guy who designed the game of exactly what doesn't work about this concept" than ten posts saying "Looks awesome!!! 10/10". The former actually contributes to the discussion; the latter is merely noise. I'm sorry you don't like my tone, but it's an unavoidable fact that this concept, a) Doesn't work, and b) Has been posted countless times (much like the classic "Blood Money" - Treasure/Curse, Cost $3, Value $3, -2 VP - card that everyone seems to think is a good idea just because it looks kinda like a reverse-Harem if you squint) to the point where the repetition is just annoying. If I sound jaded by bad card design, that's only because I am.


I enjoy the feedback, jaded or otherwise. And I do appreciate the links to the game creator's thoughts, which I hadn't seen before.

As I mentioned previously, I agree that Royal Jewels might be a pointless card. Oooh! What if I changed it to $7 cost, worth $4 and -1VP. It would be CURSED treasure. I'm just teasing, but in all seriousness though, I've read all the arguments on Blood Money, and I agree it's a cheap, uninteresting, and overpowered strategy to buy a cursed discounted gold and trash it later. But has anyone considered having it on the higher end of the scale? Where it's purchased late in the game, and has a more marginal risk-reward scale than a -3VP for $3 cheaper cursed gold? I think the $4/-1 model may be worthy of a new discussion, rather than immediately being dismissed because some prior internet threads have reached an irrevocable verdict on the matter

How about...

Graverobber's Loot ($7) Action-Curse

Worth $4
Worth -1VP
When you trash this, gain a curse.

More interesting than Royal Jewels? I think it definitely creates an interesting decision between itself and Gold when you hit $7. Of course, if I had a Piggy Bank in play, I'd just buy the gold

Speaking of which...

I playtested Piggy Bank at $2 rather than $1 (in response to some earlier comments), and it seems fine either way. Some players might actually enjoy being able to Remake or Develop a copper/curse into a Piggy Bank instead of into nothing. It really depends on if you're designing for a more casual crowd or a cutthroat competitive group. I don't think you're going to break the game or "ruin" any Remake-type cards by costing it at $1, but like I said, I playtested with it at $2 and never thought, "Man, I wish this $2 card was a buck cheaper."

I did include some "reminder text" on the bottom of Piggy Bank to clarify that it stays in play until it's trashed, and I'll update the first post to include this new version (and its $2 price tag).
 
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Nixed Royal Treasure. Graverobber's Loot added to top post as my new $7 card. HATERS GONNA HATE.
 
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Thayne Weston
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Grave robber's loot is very interesting! So how do we print these out and use them?
 
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Mike M
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negmon wrote:
Grave robber's loot is very interesting! So how do we print these out and use them?


An easy way to use them is have your dominion cards sleeved, and print the images on regular printer paper, cut them out, and slide into the sleeve in front of a Blank card (or a card you never play with - I'm looking at you, Alchemy cards).

Another low-commitment way of testing these cards without sleeves, is to print out a single picture, and put it on the table next to a pile of Blanks. Whenever you buy or draw a blank card, just look at the reference pic for a reminder of what it does. The only drawback here is you can only use one custom card at a time. If you have enough Blank cards (from buying multiple expansions of Dominion), you could label one set of blanks as "A" and another as "B" and play with multiple custom cards that way.

The guy who wrote this guide... http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0 ...suggests printing on Avery Clear Full-Sheet Labels, and sticking them onto the fronts of the Blank cards.

I'm currently using the sleeve method, but my printer is awful and running low on ink, so I'm looking at some sad, faded, off-color Gambling Houses at the moment. Kinda negates all my hard work in photoshop :) To test Piggy Banks, I'm just using Lighthouse for the moment (same cost and card type) until my new printer ink comes in the mail. Once I've tested these enough to really be happy with 5-10 different cards, I'll probably make up some PDFs that should print everything out at the right size and quantities, and post a link here.
 
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Mike M
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Added Recycle to top post.
 
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Mike, these are some fun cards. i especially like Piggy Bank (which is fairly costed at $2 imo). Recycle's probably a $6 card, or take the +1 Action off it.
 
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