Bernd Caspers
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It´s a minior issue, but one that personally bugs me.
I have only played the game once, winning the game on sudden death pretty early as the Germans, despite being encircled in a Moscow cauldron that would have made Stalingrad look like kindergarden(although I would very likely have broken out successfully).

At some point in the game the number of critical objectives needed to win as the German player instantly increases by one.
When I heard this I found it very unfair and frustrating for the German player.
Imagine you really manage to hold on and capture the 4(?) objectives to win so late in the war, than you really must have done something right and/or your opponent something wrong that needs to be rewarded/punished, since the tide already has turned against the German player at that time for sure.
I really think it´s unneccassary to increase the number, it´s close to impossible anyway and further increase pushes it over the top in my opinion.

Remember this is a game after all first and foremost and a game should be fun for both sides and I think it´s less fun if one side at one point get´s utterly chanceless.

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Carl Paradis
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Very good observation.

In the first 2008 version of the game the number of objectives to be taken was 3 for the whole game.

I changed this to stop some "gimmicky" and suicidal German attacks in the middle game just to get that third objective. Buy 1943 the United States were fully involved in the war, the USSR had recovered from the shock of the initial attack, and were receiving huge amounts of lend-lease aid, allowing them to continue the fight even if they had lost more objectives. T By that time the tide had turned, and the Germans would have needed to capture far more of the Soviet Union to have made them quit the fight.

As the Germans you probably have to change your war aims by that time from decisively defeating your foe to trying to defend your gains. This is the Historical reality, sorry.

BUT you can play with a set number of 3 objectives if you prefer. I have no problem with that house rule. As I said, it was like this in the first edition of the game.

P.S: Do not forget that you need to trace supply to a captured objective for it to be valid!
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David Laufle
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licinius wrote:

P.S: Do not forget that you need to trace supply to a captured objective for it to be valid!


Do you happen to know the exact rule reference for this offhand?

Does this also apply to Victory cities? I have seen some very gamey end turn tactics to seize victory cities on the last turn of a scenario with out of supply units.
 
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Frederic Bush
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Rhuned wrote:
licinius wrote:

P.S: Do not forget that you need to trace supply to a captured objective for it to be valid!


Do you happen to know the exact rule reference for this offhand?

Does this also apply to Victory cities? I have seen some very gamey end turn tactics to seize victory cities on the last turn of a scenario with out of supply units.


12.1:

Axis Objectives Victory: During any Victory Phase, when
they have the Initiative (12.9), the Axis win if they control
(12.7.1) and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the five gray
German Objective hexes (e.g., Moscow). After they lose
the Initiative (Turn 12), they need to control four German
Objective hexes instead.
Russian Objectives Victory: The Russians win if they
control and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the four red
Soviet Objective hexes (e.g., Berlin).
If both occur on the same turn, the side with the Initiative
wins.
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M Evan Brooks
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The basic problem with Sudden Death victory conditions is that it is a gimmick. What I have noticed is that the player uses a different strategy whether he is playing the Campaign or the Barbarossa scenario.

The latter encourages aggressive play while a more conservative approach may well reflect the Campaign. Perhaps the sudden death should have a variable due roll to determine whether it will in fact apply. This would cause the Axis player to hesitate and result in a more logical play state.
 
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Carl Paradis
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evanbrooks wrote:

The basic problem with Sudden Death victory conditions is that it is a gimmick. What I have noticed is that the player uses a different strategy whether he is playing the Campaign or the Barbarossa scenario.

The latter encourages aggressive play while a more conservative approach may well reflect the Campaign. Perhaps the sudden death should have a variable due roll to determine whether it will in fact apply. This would cause the Axis player to hesitate and result in a more logical play state.


There is two even cards in the deck cancelling the "Sudden Death" victories.

And if you don't like them, use optional rule 15.6 "No Surrender".
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Frederic Bush
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evanbrooks wrote:

The basic problem with Sudden Death victory conditions is that it is a gimmick. What I have noticed is that the player uses a different strategy whether he is playing the Campaign or the Barbarossa scenario.

The latter encourages aggressive play while a more conservative approach may well reflect the Campaign. Perhaps the sudden death should have a variable due roll to determine whether it will in fact apply. This would cause the Axis player to hesitate and result in a more logical play state.


Keep in mind, we are talking about Hitler's battle plan here. "Logic" wasn't really one of his strong suits.
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Edward Hung
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Is there a rule reference about the changr of capturing obj cities?
 
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Carl Paradis
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ehung wrote:
Is there a rule reference about the changr of capturing obj cities?


[12.1] Objectives Victory

Axis Objectives Victory: During any Victory Phase, when they have the Initiative (2.9), the Axis win if they control (2.7.) and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the five gray German Objective hexes (e.g., Moscow). After they lose the Initiative (Turn 2), they need to control four German Objective hexes instead.

Russian Objectives Victory: The Russians win if they control and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the four red Soviet Objective hexes (e.g., Berlin).

If both occur on the same turn, the side with the Initiative wins.
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Edward Hung
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Thanks. I really missed it even though i have played for so many times!
 
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Carl Paradis
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ehung wrote:
Thanks. I really missed it even though i have played for so many times!


Hey, it's a new rule. In the original game it was 3 objectives always. So this is why you missed it.
 
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Bernd Caspers
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licinius wrote:
ehung wrote:
Is there a rule reference about the changr of capturing obj cities?


[12.1] Objectives Victory

Axis Objectives Victory: During any Victory Phase, when they have the Initiative (2.9), the Axis win if they control (2.7.) and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the five gray German Objective hexes (e.g., Moscow). After they lose the Initiative (Turn 2), they need to control four German Objective hexes instead.

Russian Objectives Victory: The Russians win if they control and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the four red Soviet Objective hexes (e.g., Berlin).

If both occur on the same turn, the side with the Initiative wins.


I would like to see the game were that is happening (fullfilling the victory conditions for both sides on the same turn).
 
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Carl Paradis
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The Jakster wrote:
licinius wrote:
ehung wrote:
Is there a rule reference about the changr of capturing obj cities?


[12.1] Objectives Victory

Axis Objectives Victory: During any Victory Phase, when they have the Initiative (2.9), the Axis win if they control (2.7.) and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the five gray German Objective hexes (e.g., Moscow). After they lose the Initiative (Turn 2), they need to control four German Objective hexes instead.

Russian Objectives Victory: The Russians win if they control and can trace supply (6.0) to three of the four red Soviet Objective hexes (e.g., Berlin).

If both occur on the same turn, the side with the Initiative wins.


I would like to see the game were that is happening (fullfilling the victory conditions for both sides on the same turn).


LOL! It was a "leftover" rule from the Victory Point Games edition. In that edition the map was much smaller and stopped at the Polish Frontier. To win an objective Victory the Soviets only had to capture Koenigsberg.

But it should indeed be removed as it's almost impossible to do.
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Alex
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well.. doesn't hurt, tho... This is not redundant and clear... so I have no problem with that rule
 
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