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Saboteur 2 (expansion-only editions)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tunnel placement Q&A. With pictures! rss

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Geert Vinaskov
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Is the playing area 9 fields long and 5 fields wide? Can I build outside this grid?



It is legal to build "backwards".



It is legal to build more than five fields wide.

You can build anywere, in any direction. There are no boundaries. But maybe it's a good idea to houserule that you can't build off the table...




-----------------------------------




Can I place a card when there's no path from the starting ladder to the path I'm connecting? (or: how to use ladders)



No, this is not legal. You must be able to trace a path from the starting ladder to the tunnel card you're about to place.

There is a way to circumvent this. If you have a ladder card in your hand, you can play this anywhere. Then, newly placed tunnel cards must either connect to the starting ladder or this new ladder.



This is a legal play. A ladder card is a special tunnel card with a ladder on it. When playing these ladder tunnel cards, you don't have to be connected to the original ladder. From now on, regular tunnel cards must connect either to the original starting ladder or to the new ladder. This new ladder counts as a starting ladder for all purposes (except the rockfall: you can destroy a ladder card with the rockfall card).



Legal play. As you can see, ladders are excellent to counter saboteur tricks like the dreaded rockfall card.



This is not legal. "The ladder card can be played anywhere" means that the ladder card doesn't need to connect to any other ladder. It does not mean that you can build wall-to-wall, you must still connect tunnel-to-tunnel.




-----------------------------------




Can I place a card when there's no path from the starting ladder to the card I'm playing, because there's a door from the other team blocking me?



Yes, you can. The door closes only at the end of the round. In this case, if you're a blue gold-seeker, you won't get any treasure, because the green door blocks your way to the gold. But it doesn't stop you from playing tunnel cards behind the door.



This is legal, and useful if you're a green gold-seeker. Playing a ladder has many uses, and a green gold-seeker can play this ladder to enable him to get to the gold. The blue door won't block him from the gold, because he is able to trace a path from the gold nugget to this ladder card.




-----------------------




When counting crystals for the geologist, do crystals I can't reach count?





Yes! All crystals on the field count. It doesn't matter if they were never reachable (example 1) or if someone destroyed the path to the crystal (example 2). The only way to deny the geologist a crystal is to play a rockfall card on the crystal itself.




-----------------------




Can I place a "wall" next to a goal card?




Yes, you can. This is a great saboteur trick, and turns a simple tunnel card like a corner into a deadly weapon for the saboteur. The goal card won't get revealed.




-------------------------




What happens when I place an "unreachable path" next to a goal card?



This is a legal play. When you do this, the goal card won't get revealed.




-------------------------




My friend is a rules lawyer and argues that I can't play a ladder card next to a goal card, no matter what.




As strange as it may seem, your friend is right. This is indeed an illegal play. You can never place a ladder card next to a goal card, even though you're just extending an existing path.



(edit 0: images are now external, will replace them with images here on the geek)
(edit 1: typo)
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James Cheng
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Very nicely illustrated! I think this will be great help for new people learning the Saboteur game.

However, on the last point. The rule I have prohibit the ladder cards be played next to a goal card.
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Geert Vinaskov
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(I edited the original post, placing the ladder card next to a goal card is never allowed.)

eunoia wrote:
However, on the last point. The rule I have prohibit the ladder cards be played next to a goal card.
Yes, I agree. I believe however that this is a very strict reading of the rules.

The rule prohibiting a ladder card be played next to a goal card, is meant to cover the case when I play a ladder card "anywhere". That is, when playing a ladder tunnel card not connected to the starting ladder.

If the ladder tunnel card is played "normally", by which I mean that I can trace a path back to the starting ladder, then this restriction does not apply.

But this is only what I think. I agree that the rules possibly say that the last point is illegal. Maybe the designer will settle the matter for us?
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Frederic Moyersoen
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You all agree what is written in the rules. So, why are you trying to find another interpretation of the rule?

It's true that the rule has been written to avoid placing a ladder directly next to a Goal card. Nevertheless, because the rule exists, it's valid for all other situations.

When writing rules, it's sometimes better to keep it simple and to avoid sentences like:

"You may not place a ladder card next to a Goal card, except if you are using the card as a simple path card (without a ladder). In this case, you are just lengthening an existing path to reach the Goal card."
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Gláucio Reis
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
You all agree what is written in the rules. So, why are you trying to find another interpretation of the rule?
Because rule writers are human and thus make mistakes, so that not always the written text reflects the designer's intent.
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Elbyron Whyndon
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In a recent game the question came up about whether ladder cards can be played without connecting path-to-path (in other words, rock-to-rock). We carefully read through both rulebooks, but since the ladder creates a new starting point, it seems like it technically doesn't need to make any path-to-path connection and thus can be played rock-to-rock, so that's how we played it. This thread says that rock-to-rock is not allowed. So did I mis-interpret a rule, did the designer clarify this issue, or is it just an opinion?
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Assume that I've clarified the issue.
 
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Jason RJ
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Am I right in thinking the first post in this thread is wrong, and this (below) is NOT a legal play? Ladders can't actually be placed anywhere since this contradicts the rule that all path cards, when placed, must lead back to an existing ladder (start card or other ladder).

 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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Your example is just showing a legal placement of the ladder card. This is the key idea, which I had in mind when designing the use of the ladder.

The object of a ladder is to by-pass a dead-end.

By placing the card, you connect immediately to the Start card. Thus, the placement is correct.
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Jason RJ
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Thanks Frederic much appreciated, that makes sense now, apologies to the OP.

Thanks for such a brilliant game, everyone I've introduced to it loves it.
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Alexander Golyosa
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Unfortunately none of the pictures can be viewed any more. Is there any possibility to reupload them? Thanks!
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robert g
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Sooo, any chance to see this pictures back on-line? Would be helpful i think.
Thank you in advance.
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Kilo Force
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I would also be very interested to see the pictures returned.
 
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Jason RJ
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Hi All,

Geert had the images in his geek profile so I've relinked them below, I'm fairly sure they are all correct.

Geert Vinaskov wrote:
Is the playing area 9 fields long and 5 fields wide? Can I build outside this grid?



It is legal to build "backwards".



It is legal to build more than five fields wide.

You can build anywere, in any direction. There are no boundaries. But maybe it's a good idea to houserule that you can't build off the table...




-----------------------------------




Can I place a card when there's no path from the starting ladder to the path I'm connecting? (or: how to use ladders)



No, this is not legal. You must be able to trace a path from the starting ladder to the tunnel card you're about to place.

There is a way to circumvent this. If you have a ladder card in your hand, you can play this anywhere. Then, newly placed tunnel cards must either connect to the starting ladder or this new ladder.



This is a legal play. A ladder card is a special tunnel card with a ladder on it. When playing these ladder tunnel cards, you don't have to be connected to the original ladder. From now on, regular tunnel cards must connect either to the original starting ladder or to the new ladder. This new ladder counts as a starting ladder for all purposes (except the rockfall: you can destroy a ladder card with the rockfall card).



Legal play. As you can see, ladders are excellent to counter saboteur tricks like the dreaded rockfall card.



This is not legal. "The ladder card can be played anywhere" means that the ladder card doesn't need to connect to any other ladder. It does not mean that you can build wall-to-wall, you must still connect tunnel-to-tunnel.




-----------------------------------




Can I place a card when there's no path from the starting ladder to the card I'm playing, because there's a door from the other team blocking me?



Yes, you can. The door closes only at the end of the round. In this case, if you're a blue gold-seeker, you won't get any treasure, because the green door blocks your way to the gold. But it doesn't stop you from playing tunnel cards behind the door.



This is legal, and useful if you're a green gold-seeker. Playing a ladder has many uses, and a green gold-seeker can play this ladder to enable him to get to the gold. The blue door won't block him from the gold, because he is able to trace a path from the gold nugget to this ladder card.




-----------------------




When counting crystals for the geologist, do crystals I can't reach count?





Yes! All crystals on the field count. It doesn't matter if they were never reachable (example 1) or if someone destroyed the path to the crystal (example 2). The only way to deny the geologist a crystal is to play a rockfall card on the crystal itself.




-----------------------




Can I place a "wall" next to a goal card?




Yes, you can. This is a great saboteur trick, and turns a simple tunnel card like a corner into a deadly weapon for the saboteur. The goal card won't get revealed.




-------------------------




What happens when I place an "unreachable path" next to a goal card?




This is a legal play. When you do this, the goal card won't get revealed.




-------------------------




My friend is a rules lawyer and argues that I can't play a ladder card next to a goal card, no matter what.




As strange as it may seem, your friend is right. This is indeed an illegal play. You can never place a ladder card next to a goal card, even though you're just extending an existing path.



(edit 0: images are now external, will replace them with images here on the geek)
(edit 1: typo)
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maaltan natlaam
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Geert Vinaskov wrote:


[size=18]Can I place a card when there's no path from the starting ladder to the path I'm connecting? (or: how to use ladders)




No, this is not legal. You must be able to trace a path from the starting ladder to the tunnel card you're about to place.
Where is this stated in the rules? Is this a special Saboteur 2 rule?

I have the zman 2014(?) edition(ZMG 4026) and the only restrictions about path placement is:

* "A path card must always be put next to a path card that is already on the table."
* "The paths on all sides of the card must fit those already in play"
* "[A] path card may never be played crosswise"

It does say that gold-diggers are trying to make a path to gold and saboteurs are trying to stop it, but doesn't say it is required.

We use these kinds of connections with various subtle forms of telegraphing intentions and/or deceit.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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maaltan wrote:
Is this a special Saboteur 2 rule?
No.
 
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maaltan natlaam
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Ok.. I found this rule in the pdf provided on the AMIGO site.

I guess the z-man edition is "defective" (or old)

(clarification: i have the 2012 z-man edition, printed in 2014.)
 
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Gláucio Reis
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I had the first Z-Man edition and remember the rule from there.
 
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Frederic Moyersoen
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The Z-man rule was one of the original versions. It has been corrected in the mean-time.

The clarification is: All played paths must have a connection with the Start card.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Frederic Moyersoen wrote:
The Z-man rule was one of the original versions. It has been corrected in the mean-time.

The clarification is: All played paths must have a connection with the Start card.
I meant the first Z-Man edition had the rule of about connecting with the entrance (it was correct).
 
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