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Subject: [TV] Survivor Finale 12/18/11 (SPOILERS) rss

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J.L. Robert
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And, once again, the poow widdle Survivor juwy got their feewings huwt, and voted for the most benign player instead of the best player of the season.

I'm not saying that she wasn't competitive in challenges, or that she isn't worthy of victory. But Sophie clearly was pretty clueless on most of the long-term strategy, and mostly rode that wave instead of being a decision-maker.

At least Coach recognized that his weakness is the endgame. But, really...how do you vote people out without looking like you're back-stabbing them? Getting people voted out is the simple reality of the game. And in that reality, there shouldn't be any place for bruised egos. Sadly, however, that's usually what motivates most of the jury voters.
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Tom Patterson
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This jury was kind of bitter, but I wouldn't say Coach played a massively better game than Sophie. Todd arguably faced a bitter jury in Survivor: China and he managed to win. So did Parvati in Survivor: Micronesia. There's a way to do it. Coach's problem is how he framed his game from the beginning. He kept hammering the themes of "honor" and "integrity" and then did shit that he didn't need to do. Coach's main problem is that he has an image of himself in his head that doesn't match his actions. There's a disconnect that causes him to lose sympathy.

Sophie and Albert to me played a better game. Look, no one did shit after Cochran flipped. Coach gets points for making that happen, I agree. That was the big shift. After that Ozzy, Jim, Whitney, Dawn, and Cochran were all easy votes. Edna tried to get stuff going a little late, but it was also a really easy vote to get rid of her with the final five alliance. I don't think anyone really needed to do much outside managing Brandon and I would argue that Albert did most of the heavy lifting on that one.

Once you're in the final five, that's when the work starts in a game scenario like this. Rick was clueless and a such a whiny jackass. It's really easy to play nice when you don't do anything. So really the final three are only working hard on those two votes. That's the only time a solid five is exposed. Are there issues of management? Sure, but I would argue that Coach was playing too hard to win the game. With a player like Rick, at least what we saw, you could suss out and promise him final five and nothing more. Brandon too was crazy loyal at his word; there was no need to promise him final three. If you make people feel like close family rather than an in-game alliance there's more opportunity for bitterness.

Sophie's jury performance was above average against Albert, who everyone hated. His performance was okay, as was Coach's. Sophie's a decent winner, a solid physical player, and I'd say fairly average as far as strategy in winners is concerned.

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Matthew M
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Sophie did a much better job in the final jury that Coach did. Had Coach been less self-depreciating and hadn't let Sophie control the narrative so much he would have had a chance.

Albert made a convincing argument against Coach when he said that they (Albert and Sophie) carried Coach and not the other way around. With Albert not getting any votes, Sophie's the only real choice.

No complaints.
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J.L. Robert
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I agree that Coach played his overarching strategy card too long. But it would have been impossible for him to have shaken off the perception that he was the leader of the band.

Albert had no chance. He was totally unreliable in strategy, with seemingly a different scheme each day. And couldn't give a straight answer in Final Tribal Council. He doomed himself.

Sophie's weakness was strategy, but was a contender in challenges. In the end, her lack of strategic planning played to her advantage. Rather than being duped into a blindside, she appeared not as a schemer, nor as villianous as a leader who directed the order of player eliminations.
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Tom Patterson
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Octavian wrote:
Sophie did a much better job in the final jury that Coach did. Had Coach been less self-depreciating and hadn't let Sophie control the narrative so much he would have had a chance.

Albert made a convincing argument against Coach when he said that they (Albert and Sophie) carried Coach and not the other way around. With Albert not getting any votes, Sophie's the only real choice.

No complaints.


That was Albert's best point to the Jury, unfortunately it completely benefited Sophie. Honestly, I think she got some votes because she wasn't an overt part of the God Squad. Albert and Coach, rightly, caught a lot of flak for infusing religion into their strategy. I have no problem if you are a religious person, but to say "I prayed and God told me to vote you out" is such a cop out. It also mitigates the concept of free will, but I digress.

Sophie's performance at the final tribal council was good. She stood behind her strategy, pointed out the faults of the other two players, and struck an apologetic tone when need be.

Though is it wrong I hated Whitney's smug, judgmental tone more because I know she totally cheated on her husband with Keith?

Edit: Also, Edna gets the award for being Least Bitter. Thank you, Edna!
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Tom Patterson
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J.L.Robert wrote:
Sophie's weakness was strategy, but was a contender in challenges. In the end, her lack of strategic planning played to her advantage. Rather than being duped into a blindside, she appeared not as a schemer, nor as villianous as a leader who directed the order of player eliminations.


I don't think she had a weak strategy. The tribe was going to vote out Edna instead of Cochran and she refocused the discussion. She played her part managing Brandon. I dunno what else she should have done when it comes to the game. No one in her alliance was in any danger of cracking. Coach was edited as the leader, but I think Albert did a pretty good job of attempting to destroy that perception and, honestly, I don't feel he was working harder than Albert or Sophie when it came to thinking about that game.

I don't think she should have done anything differently. She got to the end with, I think, the two people she thought she was going to get to the end with and won.
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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During the final Tribal Council where they voted out Ozzy, when all the talk of having an intentional tie come up, I was hoping that Albert would say "You want a battle of the titans? How about we have a tie vote between Ozzy & Coach?"
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Eugene Tackleberry
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You had three people with identical strategies, stick with a 5 person alliance forged the first day.

Sophie's performance in individual immunities made it a no-brainer.
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Tom Patterson
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okiedokie wrote:
During the final Tribal Council where they voted out Ozzy, when all the talk of having an intentional tie come up, I was hoping that Albert would say "You want a battle of the titans? How about we have a tie vote between Ozzy & Coach?"


That would be epic, but Albert knew there was no way Ozzy would not be getting voted out for the third time. Honestly, that's why Coach deserved to lose. Why would you pull Ozzy aside and tell him you want him in the final three? You know Albert view Sophie as a threat and that Sophie wants to sit next to you at the final tribal council, so you're not in danger of going home if Ozzy wins that IC. You're basically making a promise you know you'll break if the opportunity presents itself. Why do that?
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Erik D
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Coach was a front runner until he undid himself with his own bad PR moves. (Dealing with Ozzy, no longer being up front with people, backing out of promise after promise.) Some people can get away with that behavior, but not when they pride themselves on not being that type of person.
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rob cavallo
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Survivor: Bible Camp was terrible this season.

they need to shake some thing up.
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Mike K
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Random bullet points:

* Coach became Russell. Just another guy who promises everything to everyone, only to have it all come crashing down upon him. Honestly, I'm surprised that he got as many votes as he did. Thought Albert would do better, but oh well. And Sophie still came off like a brat ... with a daddy who could've passed as Thurston Howell the Third (at least from that one episode).

* Really wanted to see Jim, during the final Tribal Counsel, lay into Cochrane ... but he got his words in during the reunion show. And I don't blame him one bit for being bitter ...

* ... as he was dead on with Cochrane's ineptitude. As I wanted to see someone from Savaii make it, I'm still p***ed at that little geekwad Harvard schmuck for screwing over his whole tribe (and himself, eventually), all for the chance to finish 7th, one gluttonous moment, and a free massage.

* Really shocked to hear how Brandon's family is all but disowning him for his efforts this season. I guess honesty just isn't the best policy on a show such as this, but at least he was up front with how things would play out at Tribals.

* Looking forward to February.
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Haven't seen the final interview show yet, but I don't mind Sophie winning. She wasn't riding on coattails. She was less visible than Coach, but that doesn't mean she didn't do anything. She was still making decisions and convincing people to go along with her when needed.

I would have liked to have seen Coach win mostly because I'm impressed with how his game has improved. First time on, he was a pompous ass who made a fool out of himself. Second time around, he was doing still too full of himself. This time, the ego was there, but he held it in check and showed that he can be a good (not great, but good) player. It was nice.

Surprised how many people here thought Albert deserved more votes. Albert's whole game was coming up with random people to vote out, trying to talk other people into going along with him, then failing. Yes, he managed Brandon some, but that was the only thing he was successful at the whole game. He was an accidentally coattail rider; constantly trying to strike out on his own, seeing he couldn't get anywhere that way, then finally voting how Coach and Sophie told him to.
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Tom Patterson
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wmshub wrote:
Surprised how many people here thought Albert deserved more votes. Albert's whole game was coming up with random people to vote out, trying to talk other people into going along with him, then failing. Yes, he managed Brandon some, but that was the only thing he was successful at the whole game. He was an accidentally coattail rider; constantly trying to strike out on his own, seeing he couldn't get anywhere that way, then finally voting how Coach and Sophie told him to.


I think Albert's problem was the same as Coach's. He promised too much to too many people and they saw through his sort of empty promises. So what happened is that he has a part of Coach's game and a part of Sophie's. People when you look like the less perfect version of the other two options, you're not gonna pull many votes.

PICK UP MY TILES
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J.L.Robert wrote:
And, once again, the poow widdle Survivor juwy got their feewings huwt, and voted for the most benign player instead of the best player of the season.

I'm not saying that she wasn't competitive in challenges, or that she isn't worthy of victory. But Sophie clearly was pretty clueless on most of the long-term strategy, and mostly rode that wave instead of being a decision-maker.

At least Coach recognized that his weakness is the endgame. But, really...how do you vote people out without looking like you're back-stabbing them? Getting people voted out is the simple reality of the game. And in that reality, there shouldn't be any place for bruised egos. Sadly, however, that's usually what motivates most of the jury voters.


This is the one thing I most detest about Survivor. In theory it's a nice social experiment. In practice, it's a bunch of annoyed jury members that want to "stick it to the man" and "Screw that guy who voted me out".

What I don't like is that when the jury members get voted out, they all go to "loser lodge" some location with the crew etc. Where they can eat, sleep, and talk about the game all they want. So in effect, if someone wanted (say for example) Sophie to win, they could sway votes by convincing others to switch to her. I say keep all jury members isolated.

I am so tired of less deserving people winning. Remember Vicepia? She was a contestant that did NOTHING. She lazed around all day, even when people asked her straight to help, she ignored them. She was clueless about strategy. She really had nothing "just tell me who to vote for". She'd go with the majority. Challenges? Pathetic at best.

Then she finds her self at the finals (can't recall if it was 2 or 3 people back then). For no other reason then "there was always someone more threatening to vote out" and someone felt that if they took her, it'd be an easy win. Because you could say "Vicepia did nothing, at all. Zero, vote me instead"

Instead they voted her because they didn't like the alternative. So the most useless pathetic person won the game.

Then there was Sonya or Sandra? Who won the Pirate one with Rupert on it. She came back and won the All-Stars (heroes vs villains). She had the exact same game plan "Don't get involved with any arguments, smile a lot, and just agree to everything" She was useless at challenges, and made sure people were always worried about someone else.

Then at the end, she wins for some reason. No real strategy, just hide.

I'm glad that last season Rob won, I was expecting him to get shafted because Jury's are notorious for being a bunch of douches.
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Peter Ferguson
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I still would have liked to see Coach win.


I thought Coach would have brought up his first few days on the island. After loosing the initial challenge to Ozzy, he was in bad standing with his tribe, and managed to turn public opinion of himself around. Not only that, he organized a 5 strong alliance, and became the head of that alliance.

As much as Albert and Sophie may have been "strategic players" (not sure I'd agree with that). If someone was going to be voted out, or a new idea was to come up, who did they first run too. Coach. He had them all set up.

He also had Cochrane and Brandon eating out of his palm. He manipulated more then Sophie did (did she manipulate anyone?).

She and Albert say that they were strategic. I saw the two of them talk a lot, but I didn't see much actions from them. Sophie was good at some challenges, but in the end. I didn't really think that she stood out as a game player by any means.

Coach on the other hand, seemed to be running the show for a long time. I think that Albert and Sophie had a few opportunities to really shake things up, but never took them.
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Matthew M
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Gatekeeper3000 wrote:
I think that Albert and Sophie had a few opportunities to really shake things up, but never took them.


Clearly only one of them actually needed to.

As everyone on the jury was prepare to hand it to Ozzy for his string of challenge wins, then by the transitive property Sophie deserved the win for beating Ozzy in the final immunity.
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Peter Ferguson
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Octavian wrote:
Gatekeeper3000 wrote:
I think that Albert and Sophie had a few opportunities to really shake things up, but never took them.


Clearly only one of them actually needed to.

As everyone on the jury was prepare to hand it to Ozzy for his string of challenge wins, then by the transitive property Sophie deserved the win for beating Ozzy in the final immunity.


This got me to thinking...

For all his "I'm the Dragon Slayer" etc. malarky, and also for being an "athelete" (he's a Coach after all). What is Coach's over all win/loss ratio of individual rewards when it comes to his three different seasons? I'm curious to know.
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Also wanted to ask a slightly unrelated question.


The next season is called "One World" where the two tribes are at one camp. Why is this such a "new idea" I'm positive that they've done this before, and it was pretty dull.


What I think would be a really neat idea is doing the four tribes again (I liked the season that they did that. Remember the Mexican Goth guy who thought that someone professed their love for him when she simply gave him a pity "ah, we love you too.")

At any rate... Set up the camps like this.


One Central Watering hole, and pathways leading to all four seperate camps. Each camp is a 5-10 min walk away. So secluded enough that each tribe is seperate from the others, but not so much that you couldn't try and spy on other tribes, or even raid them in the night. Of course I guess that this would be difficult with three camera men walking behind you in the bushes.
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Tom Patterson
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Gatekeeper3000 wrote:
Also wanted to ask a slightly unrelated question.


The next season is called "One World" where the two tribes are at one camp. Why is this such a "new idea" I'm positive that they've done this before, and it was pretty dull.


You're thinking of Survivor: Thailand which is one of the worst seasons on record, mostly because of how well Brian played. Also, Brian was scummy so no one enjoyed how well he played. In this case, however, it was a fake merge that cost the season it's possible only "shake up" by getting rid of Shii-Ann. I think the difference with Survivor: One World AKA Survivor: South Pacific VI is that the tribes will know from the beginning what is what.

I predict a miserable failure.
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Peter Ferguson
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TommyP wrote:


I predict a miserable failure.



As do I...

I wonder if they'll bring back two previous contestants again. It seems to be a "thing" now.


I also wondered what a show would be like if they made a "first out" edition. Got a bunch of people who got voted out right away to come back.

However many of those people deserved to get the boot right away, so it may actually be an awful idea.
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