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Subject: Anyone know where to get Yomi complete edition cheap? rss

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Mark Iradian
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After playing a few rounds online, I can see myself enjoying the game. Unfortunately online stores I know are selling it for 80 bucks, way too much for any board game.
 
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Kovács György
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Considering the game's normally $100, that 80 isn't all that bad. Anyway, there's a print-and-play version for 15 bucks. (Though after factoring in the cost of time involved in cutting/sleeving the cards, that turned out not to be cheaper at all for me)
 
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Adam Clausing
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Look at the BGG marketplace. You could typically find one for $65 plus shipping... maybe even lower for an open copy.
 
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Nicolas Brassard
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You can get it for 77.95$ at the German Boardgame Company. Good luck finding it new for cheaper anywhere in Canada... And just to put things into perspective (and play the Devil's advocate), what you get for that amount is 10 packs of cards, 2 player mats, some life counters and a nice box to store it all in. That amounts to ~8$ a pack - compare that to say, MtG, and you've got pretty good value for the money.

The cheaper alternative would be to find an FLGS that sells the duo-packs. I think those go for 10$-15$ each.
 
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Mark Iradian
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Xenophax wrote:
You can get it for 77.95$ at the German Boardgame Company. Good luck finding it new for cheaper anywhere in Canada... And just to put things into perspective (and play the Devil's advocate), what you get for that amount is 10 packs of cards, 2 player mats, some life counters and a nice box to store it all in. That amounts to ~8$ a pack - compare that to say, MtG, and you've got pretty good value for the money.

The cheaper alternative would be to find an FLGS that sells the duo-packs. I think those go for 10$-15$ each.


But I don't play MTG, so the comparison is meaningless. I have games like Nightfall which contain hundreds of cards for 30 bucks, yet here one that is 3 times the cost of that.
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Nicolas Brassard
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And I don't drive a Porsche but that doesn't mean I can't compare it's value to that of my car or any other. I could try to explain that Sirlin Games is a smaller publisher than AEG and their volume is smaller, but that would probably be meaningless too. In any case, if the game is too expensive for your taste, you can always play it online for free.
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Kovács György
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MarkyX wrote:
I have games like Nightfall which contain hundreds of cards for 30 bucks, yet here one that is 3 times the cost of that.

I am compelled to link to Rab's beautiful piece on board game pricing.

tl;dr: measuring the value of games based on the amount of cardboard they contain is stupid. Games are made of ideas, refined through years of work. THAT is what you're paying for, not just "a bunch of cards".
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MarkyX wrote:
Xenophax wrote:
You can get it for 77.95$ at the German Boardgame Company. Good luck finding it new for cheaper anywhere in Canada... And just to put things into perspective (and play the Devil's advocate), what you get for that amount is 10 packs of cards, 2 player mats, some life counters and a nice box to store it all in. That amounts to ~8$ a pack - compare that to say, MtG, and you've got pretty good value for the money.

The cheaper alternative would be to find an FLGS that sells the duo-packs. I think those go for 10$-15$ each.


But I don't play MTG, so the comparison is meaningless. I have games like Nightfall which contain hundreds of cards for 30 bucks, yet here one that is 3 times the cost of that.


you're entitled to buy anything you want for $30. agreed.
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Bryan Lane
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Xenophax wrote:
And I don't drive a Porsche but that doesn't mean I can't compare it's value to that of my car or any other. I could try to explain that Sirlin Games is a smaller publisher than AEG and their volume is smaller, but that would probably be meaningless too. In any case, if the game is too expensive for your taste, you can always play it online for free.


I think the big point here is that Sirlin wants to compare his game with MTG so that the price looks low, when the games it is more likely to compare with - other boxed card games - make the price tag look high. Likewise, see his new changes to the fantasy strike site - playing Yomi online will cost more than playing Starcraft 2 online, and despite the fact that many games have free online implementations, he insists that the online implementation of Yomi/Puzzle Strike is more akin to SC2 than Dominion on Isotropic.

So if you want to use the car analogy, it's like he's trying to sell a Camry for $100K and pointing to the $1M McLaren F1 instead of the more appropriately priced Accord instead.

Really, it's up to you whether you think the game is worth it or not. I picked up Puzzle Strike and while it WAS expensive for a game of it's type, I still think it was worth every penny. Yomi was asking too much, I felt. I know Sirlin is a small company which makes his stuff more expensive due to smaller print runs, but he seems to have a different motivation from a lot of board game developers - it seems to be more about the money than the dream of producing board games. That is his right though. It's a free market. Charge what the market will bear. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet, etc.

I'll say this: I don't always agree with his mental model of how much things should cost, but he does put out quality games. Does the quality warrant the huge sticker cost on Puzzle Strike/Yomi? For me one was, the other wasn't. For some people both were, for some people neither were. If you've played it online you should be able to get a feel for how much play you'll get out of them. The double deck packs might make more sense for you, if you don't mind playing with a tiny subset of the game. If you do, perhaps you can justify spreading the cost out buying a couple now, a couple later.
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Michael Marvosh
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If you play the full version as much as it needs to be played to start to grok all the strategies involved, $100 is a very reasonable price. There is a ton of game here to explore. Is $100 for a fancy chessboard too much for someone who plays chess hundreds of times a year? Not on your life, and chessboards can be had for much more than that.

If you think you will play the game infrequently or as a filler, then yes, $100 is probably too much. Buy a $25 pack of Yomi decks and use that instead.
 
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David Sirlin
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The price is actually low when you compare it per deck to other games sold as decks, like Summoner Wars or Blue Moon, or whatever. It's only $12.50 per deck in a 2-pack, or significantly less if you want the bundle. Since two playmats of that size and quality retail for $25-$30 from other companies, the decks are like $7.50 each or less in the bundle, so yeah that's pretty low. The bundle is meant to be a way to get your per deck price down even lower, and it does, but 2-packs are out there too. (And so is the print-and-play of the entire game for $15 or you can play for free online at www.fantasystrike.com all you want.) I guess for a more fair comparison on the bundle, look at how much other games cost when you buy every single piece of content for them, especially games with 10 different balanced asymmetric decks. (I guess there aren't any to compare it to?)
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It is interesting that people balk at the initial outlay for Yomi when you do take into account exactly what you're getting and prices for similar games. I've never played it, and I understand people see a $100 pricetag and wilt, but the designer does make a pretty good point in my opinion.
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Adam Ruzzo
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fastlane wrote:
I think the big point here is that Sirlin wants to compare his game with MTG so that the price looks low, when the games it is more likely to compare with - other boxed card games - make the price tag look high. Likewise, see his new changes to the fantasy strike site - playing Yomi online will cost more than playing Starcraft 2 online, and despite the fact that many games have free online implementations, he insists that the online implementation of Yomi/Puzzle Strike is more akin to SC2 than Dominion on Isotropic.


Actually, the online implementation of Yomi/Puzzle Strike is more like League of Legends than SC2. SC2 you buy once and play online for free forever. League of Legends is FREE to play, but you can only play the champions that are free that week. If you like a particular champion and want to keep playing them, even when they are not free, you can buy the champion in two ways: a) Pay for the champion with the currency you get from playing the game (I.E. no real money cost), or b) you can purchase the character for real money.

This seems to be a very fair method for both consumer and publisher. There has been a LOT of work put into the online implementation of the game, and I for one think it's amazing that we're able to play it for free at all with the quality level it's currently at.
 
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Bryan Lane
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Bridger wrote:
fastlane wrote:
I think the big point here is that Sirlin wants to compare his game with MTG so that the price looks low, when the games it is more likely to compare with - other boxed card games - make the price tag look high. Likewise, see his new changes to the fantasy strike site - playing Yomi online will cost more than playing Starcraft 2 online, and despite the fact that many games have free online implementations, he insists that the online implementation of Yomi/Puzzle Strike is more akin to SC2 than Dominion on Isotropic.


Actually, the online implementation of Yomi/Puzzle Strike is more like League of Legends than SC2. SC2 you buy once and play online for free forever. League of Legends is FREE to play, but you can only play the champions that are free that week. If you like a particular champion and want to keep playing them, even when they are not free, you can buy the champion in two ways: a) Pay for the champion with the currency you get from playing the game (I.E. no real money cost), or b) you can purchase the character for real money.

This seems to be a very fair method for both consumer and publisher. There has been a LOT of work put into the online implementation of the game, and I for one think it's amazing that we're able to play it for free at all with the quality level it's currently at.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I can almost guarantee you the effort and costs to develop LoL (which I'll add the disclaimer I haven't actually played but have seen screenshots and videos of in-game action) probably exceed that of the fantasy strike site by an order of magnitude, especially if you take into account that the art was previously existing (it's one of the reasons Yomi and PS cost so much, after all). So there's no new art, no level design, trivial animation and probably (I don't know for sure, but being a developer I can make an educated guess) a substantially smaller codebase... I'm just not seeing where you're comparing the scope of the two applications.

Also, I think the thing is that you're looking at 2 different markets. While there is crossover between the video gamer and board gamer market, this is a digital implementation of a board game, while LoL appeals more to a broader section of the video gamer market. Again, I'd probably point to a ton of different sites that allow you to play similar online board game implementations for free, or for a very small 1-time activation fee.

To me, it just seems like there's an attempt to group the games in with whatever will net the highest profits, whether or not the shoe fits. Others will disagree. Perhaps that's a somewhat cynical viewpoint, but that's what I get from the comparisons to MTG, SC2 and LoL.
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Kaiwen Zhang
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hey Mark

you can't find a new copy of Yomi in GTA for less than $78-80+tx I'm afraid...

I'll bring the game to TABSCon if you want to play next time
 
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Bryan Lane
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Sirlin wrote:
The price is actually low when you compare it per deck to other games sold as decks, like Summoner Wars or Blue Moon, or whatever. It's only $12.50 per deck in a 2-pack, or significantly less if you want the bundle. Since two playmats of that size and quality retail for $25-$30 from other companies, the decks are like $7.50 each or less in the bundle, so yeah that's pretty low. The bundle is meant to be a way to get your per deck price down even lower, and it does, but 2-packs are out there too. (And so is the print-and-play of the entire game for $15 or you can play for free online at www.fantasystrike.com all you want.) I guess for a more fair comparison on the bundle, look at how much other games cost when you buy every single piece of content for them, especially games with 10 different balanced asymmetric decks. (I guess there aren't any to compare it to?)


To be fair, after reading this he is quite correct in that there is precedent for this pricing structure. If you look at the summoner wars master set, is has a similar set of bonus goodies and while it costs about half the price, it has 6 decks instead of 10, and those decks are smaller than the Yomi decks. If you look at the individual cost of decks, they're fairly similar. The Yomi decks break down to be a similar cost when comparing two single decks to a 2-pack of Yomi decks. The remaining difference in price can be explained with the larger size of the Yomi decks.

I don't actually play blue moon/summoner wars, so I didn't realize the cost structure already in place. I'm still not sure I really agree with it when other games can do it cheaper (see most deckbuilding games), but I suppose it's probably due to larger print runs.

The bottom line doesn't change, however. If you play it a ton you'll still get your money's worth out of it. It's not like Sirlin's tossing out garbage games. For me, I can honestly say that I wouldn't play Yomi enough to warrant dropping 100 bucks CAD online or 120 CAD at the FLGS. Puzzle Strike was worth the extra money.

The Yomi 2-packs cost 20 from Starlit Citadel or 25 at the FLGS. The problem with that model is that for me, I'm generally buying 1 character I want and 1 character I'm less crazy about playing, and I don't feel that any 1 set is really well balanced because the characters are balanced as a full set rather than 1v1 - there are bad matchups to varying degrees (i.e. Character A has an advantage over character B, but B has an advantage over character C who has an advantage over character A). I think the game breaks down when you reduce it to 2 characters of the 10, meaning that you kind of have to keep buying decks (unless they start getting sold in mirror-matches, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the whole asymmetrical design. In short: I don't think you get a complete game for your 25 bucks.

Either I'm going to play this everyday at lunch, in which case the $100 is worth it, or it gets pulled out once in a while and it's not. That's sticker shock for you, I guess. I think there's a few games that have burned me that way (the one that comes to mind is Space Hulk, which while I love it to death, it rarely hits the table because of its 2-player nature), which is why I'm a bit more cautious about repeating the experience. We do play games everyday at lunch, but there's 3 of us, which means it would likely sit in my bag more often than not. That's not okay with that kind of price tag.
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Robert Brimer
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I know a great place to get it cheap. sirlingames.com is where I bought my copy. It is currently in the mail. I have also purchased Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel 2nd Edition from Sirlin. I love the characters and the games. I can't wait to try the new characters in FD2.

As far as the price goes, I will say this: I bought the PnP version of Yomi online. I printed out about 5 decks. However, I tired of using them. Putting them together was tiresome and wasteful of ink and paper. I wish I had just purchased the physical game from the beginning but that's in the past now. I have no problem paying the 105 dollars ( I bought the Cursed cards as well ) That David is charging for the game. It is a wonderful game. You get a LOT of value for what you are buying. If you buy the game direct from sirlingames.com you are also going to get the PnP version. That means you can print out a second copy of a popular character if you want to do a mirror match. That alone is awesome enough for me to go straight to Sirlin instead of going to coolstuff down the road in Orlando. Keep up the good work Sirlin Games!
 
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bosefasaurus wrote:
I know a great place to get it cheap. sirlingames.com is where I bought my copy. It is currently in the mail. I have also purchased Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel 2nd Edition from Sirlin. I love the characters and the games. I can't wait to try the new characters in FD2.

As far as the price goes, I will say this: I bought the PnP version of Yomi online. I printed out about 5 decks. However, I tired of using them. Putting them together was tiresome and wasteful of ink and paper. I wish I had just purchased the physical game from the beginning but that's in the past now. I have no problem paying the 105 dollars ( I bought the Cursed cards as well ) That David is charging for the game. It is a wonderful game. You get a LOT of value for what you are buying. If you buy the game direct from sirlingames.com you are also going to get the PnP version. That means you can print out a second copy of a popular character if you want to do a mirror match. That alone is awesome enough for me to go straight to Sirlin instead of going to coolstuff down the road in Orlando. Keep up the good work Sirlin Games!


I think that by cheap, the OP probably means "less than MSRP". Sirlin charges full MSRP on his site. The OP doesn't like the sound of 80 bucks... I can't really see him finding 100 palatable.
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MarkyX wrote:
After playing a few rounds online, I can see myself enjoying the game. Unfortunately online stores I know are selling it for 80 bucks, way too much for any board game.


It's not a boardgame. It's 10 decks of cards, plus some player mats. At $8 per deck, it's a bargain. Amazing game, too.
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fastlane wrote:
Xenophax wrote:
And I don't drive a Porsche but that doesn't mean I can't compare it's value to that of my car or any other. I could try to explain that Sirlin Games is a smaller publisher than AEG and their volume is smaller, but that would probably be meaningless too. In any case, if the game is too expensive for your taste, you can always play it online for free.


I think the big point here is that Sirlin wants to compare his game with MTG so that the price looks low, when the games it is more likely to compare with - other boxed card games - make the price tag look high.


A Dominion base set for about $30 contains about thirty different cards with a bunch of duplicates. Two Magic booster packs contain about 30 different cards with very few duplicates for about $7. One could argue that Dominion buyers got scammed. Yomi has about 200 uniques with a few duplicates, roughly what you would get out of a Magic booster box.

Start picking that apart and you'll see what I mean: price comparison between games is largely ridiculous.
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trenttsd wrote:
fastlane wrote:
Xenophax wrote:
And I don't drive a Porsche but that doesn't mean I can't compare it's value to that of my car or any other. I could try to explain that Sirlin Games is a smaller publisher than AEG and their volume is smaller, but that would probably be meaningless too. In any case, if the game is too expensive for your taste, you can always play it online for free.


I think the big point here is that Sirlin wants to compare his game with MTG so that the price looks low, when the games it is more likely to compare with - other boxed card games - make the price tag look high.


A Dominion base set for about $30 contains about thirty different cards with a bunch of duplicates. Two Magic booster packs contain about 30 different cards with very few duplicates for about $7. One could argue that Dominion buyers got scammed. Yomi has about 200 uniques with a few duplicates, roughly what you would get out of a Magic booster box.

Start picking that apart and you'll see what I mean: price comparison between games is largely ridiculous.


That would almost mean something if Yomi or Dominion were collectible

By that logic a standard deck of cards is 52 unique cards that you can pick up for about a buck. Each deck of Yomi cards has exactly the same number of unique cards. Sounds like Yomi is a total ripoff when the decks cost 12 times that.

Saying you get less value for the money for Dominion over 2 packs of magic based on unique cards is ridiculous.
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Cheap is a subjective thing. It is based not only on the price compared to other goods or services which could instead be purchased but also the inherent value of the purchased goods in the opinion of the buyer and seller.

When I said 100 dollars was cheap I meant that. This is my opinion. That is what the OP wanted to hear, people's opinions. If they had said "I want this game to cost less than 80 dollars, where can I get it for this?" then we would have a different story. For what you get in the box, 100 dollars is a good deal to me.

I have this game. It is awesome. Not once have I regretted buying it. If someone else finds it too expensive for their budget or they view it to be overpriced for the value of its contents then that person should not buy it.

Pretty cut and dry.
 
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bosefasaurus wrote:
Cheap is a subjective thing. It is based not only on the price compared to other goods or services which could instead be purchased but also the inherent value of the purchased goods in the opinion of the buyer and seller.

When I said 100 dollars was cheap I meant that. This is my opinion. That is what the OP wanted to hear, people's opinions. If they had said "I want this game to cost less than 80 dollars, where can I get it for this?" then we would have a different story. For what you get in the box, 100 dollars is a good deal to me.

I have this game. It is awesome. Not once have I regretted buying it. If someone else finds it too expensive for their budget or they view it to be overpriced for the value of its contents then that person should not buy it.

Pretty cut and dry.


Did you read the OP?
MarkyX wrote:
After playing a few rounds online, I can see myself enjoying the game. Unfortunately online stores I know are selling it for 80 bucks, way too much for any board game.


I'm not really sure where you're reading that he's soliciting opinions as to the whether the game is worth 100 bucks.

He clearly states that he can find it for 80 bucks and that it is too expensive. Since 100 > 80, 100 is not "cheap" in this context. Cheap compared to purchasing a new car? sure. Cheap compared to a large collection of tournament grade magic cards? Hell yes. Cheap compared to his already located sources? No.
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fastlane wrote:


We'll have to agree to disagree. I can almost guarantee you the effort and costs to develop LoL...I'm just not seeing where you're comparing the scope of the two applications.


I did not intend to compare the scope of the two. Clearly League has (as you said) an order of magnitude or two more effort in terms of art/coding/animations/etc.

I was simply comparing the business model, which is just as fair in LoL as it is in Yomi IMHO. The developer has spent a lot of time on the code for the Fantasystrike site. It wasn't simply "throw the already developed game onto the internet and watch it work."[/q]

I saw what the site looked like back in the day when it didn't enforce any rules, and had no ladder system or quickmatching. It's come a long way. I don't begrudge them for wanting to try to make a few bucks off of it to compensate for all the work while simultaneously keeping the service available for free with some limitations.
 
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fastlane wrote:

That would almost mean something if Yomi or Dominion were collectible

By that logic a standard deck of cards is 52 unique cards that you can pick up for about a buck. Each deck of Yomi cards has exactly the same number of unique cards. Sounds like Yomi is a total ripoff when the decks cost 12 times that.

Saying you get less value for the money for Dominion over 2 packs of magic based on unique cards is ridiculous.


The only thing that matters is production costs. Yomi has unique commissioned art. A pack of playing cards does not. My understanding is the artist spent a few months working on all the cards (if not longer). That kind of time from a professional artist doesn't come cheap.

That having been said, if you can spread that cost over tens or hundreds of thousdands of copies of that art, the cost goes down per card. Unfortunately, Yomi doesn't have the built-in audience that Magic has developed, so it cannot sell 50k copies of a specific card and spread that cost out. The cost is, instead, absorbed by far fewer people (maybe 5-10k?) and so the decks cost more.

The same is true for mass production economies of scale. Producing 10k copies of a deck has a higher cost than producing 500k copies of a pack of playing cards.

The only real comparison you can make on price is to other games which have similar production runs and similar card makeup. Summoner Wars is one of the only examples I can think of, and in that department they compare at about the same price.
 
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