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Descent: Journeys in the Dark» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fatigue for Movement rss

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Pier Luigi Ambrosini
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Hi all,
yesterday we had a Road session and I had a discussion with our Overlord on when an hero can spend fatigue for movement point.

The situation was this : I had declared a battle action and used 3 of my 5 fatigue to move, at this point the Overlord played a spiked trap and I fall inside.
Inside the pit I declare to spend my 2 fatigue to gain movement, use one of those to drink a fatigue pot ( restoring 5 fatigue ) and use one of the restored fatigue to gain another movement poin and go outside the pit...

The overlord told me that i can't "store" the movement point inside the pit, but inside the pit i must use the first fatigue to drink a potion ( and restore 4 of 5 points ) and then use 2 fatigue to escape the pit...

I've make an example where declaring a run action with an hero with speed 3 and 3 faigue I can gain immediatly 3 movement point to go 9 and then start to spend my movement points, and the Overlord say that i MUST spend mp given by declared action and then may spend fatigue..

So, when I can gain movement during my turn ?

I hope the situation is clear and sorry for some mistakes
Regads
Pier Luigi
 
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Master of the Waz
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You were correct. You spend fatigue to gain movement points. When you spend the movement points during your turn is completely up to you.

Another way to look at it is you are not spending fatigue to drink the potion. You spend fatigue to get a movement point. Then you spend the movement point to drink the potion.
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Mark McG
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ziotrank wrote:

Inside the pit I declare to spend my 2 fatigue to gain movement, use one of those to drink a fatigue pot ( restoring 5 fatigue ) and use one of the restored fatigue to gain another movement poin and go outside the pit...

The overlord told me that i can't "store" the movement point inside the pit, but inside the pit i must use the first fatigue to drink a potion ( and restore 4 of 5 points ) and then use 2 fatigue to escape the pit...


p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points."

and p.16
"Movement Actions
In addition to moving, figures can use
some or all of their movement points
to perform other tasks. The following
table lists these tasks and the
number of movement points
required to execute them:
....A figure
in a pit may climb out for two movement points, and
is then placed adjacent to the pit in any legal, empty
space(s) the owner chooses."

I think the OL is correct about the pit, the hero with 2 fatigue cannot sequentially spend 1 on climbing and 1 to drink a potion, and then another 1 fatigue to leave the pit, leaving 4 fatigue remaining.

My opinion is that the hero must sequentially spend 1 fatigue to drink the potion, and then 2 (out of 5) fatigue to leave the pit. Leaving the hero with 3 fatigue. I don't think you can perform movement actions on a lay away scheme, investing 1 movement point, doing something else, then completing the move.
 
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Shayne Gray
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Minedog3 wrote:


I think the OL is correct about the pit, the hero with 2 fatigue cannot sequentially spend 1 on climbing and 1 to drink a potion, and then another 1 fatigue to leave the pit, leaving 4 fatigue remaining.


But that is not what he did, he stated..

ziotrank wrote:

Inside the pit I declare to spend my 2 fatigue to gain movement, use one of those to drink a fatigue pot ( restoring 5 fatigue ) and use one of the restored fatigue to gain another movement poin and go outside the pit...


He had 2 movement points, he used 1 to drink a potion, he only had 1 mp left which was not enough to get out of the pit so he spent a fatigue to give him an additional mp thus letting him get out of the pit.

There is nothing wrong with this.
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Jeff Johnson
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Minedog3 wrote:
ziotrank wrote:

Inside the pit I declare to spend my 2 fatigue to gain movement, use one of those to drink a fatigue pot ( restoring 5 fatigue ) and use one of the restored fatigue to gain another movement poin and go outside the pit...

The overlord told me that i can't "store" the movement point inside the pit, but inside the pit i must use the first fatigue to drink a potion ( and restore 4 of 5 points ) and then use 2 fatigue to escape the pit...


p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points."

and p.16
"Movement Actions
In addition to moving, figures can use
some or all of their movement points
to perform other tasks. The following
table lists these tasks and the
number of movement points
required to execute them:
....A figure
in a pit may climb out for two movement points, and
is then placed adjacent to the pit in any legal, empty
space(s) the owner chooses."

I think the OL is correct about the pit, the hero with 2 fatigue cannot sequentially spend 1 on climbing and 1 to drink a potion, and then another 1 fatigue to leave the pit, leaving 4 fatigue remaining.

My opinion is that the hero must sequentially spend 1 fatigue to drink the potion, and then 2 (out of 5) fatigue to leave the pit. Leaving the hero with 3 fatigue. I don't think you can perform movement actions on a lay away scheme, investing 1 movement point, doing something else, then completing the move.


This is another example of players doing things in "shorthand". Which only matters in these situations where they forget what they're shortening. You've quoted the rules yourself, and yet you contradict them.

You're not spending fatigue to move out of the pit. You're spending fatigue for MP. The MPs do not need to be spent immediately. There's no indication that they must be.

In this instance 2 fatigue is spent for 2 movement points. One of those points is used to drink a potion to restore full fatigue. Then another fatigue is spent for another move point. The hero adds that to the 1 movement point he had not yet spent and now has enough to exit the pit.

It's no different from the movement points you're given at the start of your turn for declaring a run or advance. Those are effectively "banked" and can be used at any time you choose*, or added to with fatigue. The only things that will remove them is spending them or ending your turn.

*barring that you don't use them to move further spaces after triggering an effect that occurs when you "end your movement".
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Mark McG
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p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points."

Digitality wrote:


You're not spending fatigue to move out of the pit. You're spending fatigue for MP. The MPs do not need to be spent immediately. There's no indication that they must be.

In this instance 2 fatigue is spent for 2 movement points.


So what about the part where it says 1 fatigue for 1 MP. Not 2 fatigue or more for equal number of MP. This is EXACTLY what the rule says.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Minedog3 wrote:
p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires
. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points."

Digitality wrote:


You're not spending fatigue to move out of the pit. You're spending fatigue for MP. The MPs do not need to be spent immediately. There's no indication that they must be.

In this instance 2 fatigue is spent for 2 movement points.


So what about the part where it says 1 fatigue for 1 MP. Not 2 fatigue or more for equal number of MP. This is EXACTLY what the rule says.


The rule says you can do it as often as the hero desires. It also says it can be done at any time (after declaring an action during the heroes step 3, from a different rule) Spending 2F for 2MP is just doing it twice.

This is very simple.
He was in the pit with 0MP and 2F.
He spent 1F for 1MP. He now has 1MP and 1F.
He spent 1F for 1MP. He now has 2MP and 0F.
He then spends 1MP to drink a potion. He now has 1MP and (full=X) fatigue.
He spends 1F for 1MP. He now has 2MP and (X-1)F.
He spends 2MP to get out of the pit. He now has 0MP and (X-1)F.
 
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Mark McG
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corbon wrote:

The rule says you can do it as often as the hero desires. It also says it can be done at any time (after declaring an action during the heroes step 3, from a different rule) Spending 2F for 2MP is just doing it twice.


If you say so.. banking MF just runs counter to games I normally play, and the buy 1, then use 1 seemed pretty clear to me..
 
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Shayne Gray
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You could trade in a fatigue for a MP and then not even use it if you so desire. It is not a buy 1 then use 1. All it is is buy 1.

The key part is..

Minedog3 wrote:

p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points.
"


When you trade in a fatigue for a MP it just goes into your pool of MPs to be used as desired.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Minedog3 wrote:
corbon wrote:

The rule says you can do it as often as the hero desires. It also says it can be done at any time (after declaring an action during the heroes step 3, from a different rule) Spending 2F for 2MP is just doing it twice.


If you say so.. banking MF just runs counter to games I normally play, and the buy 1, then use 1 seemed pretty clear to me..


How is this different from earning SpeedxMP and 1 attack from declaring an Advance and using some MP before the attack and some after?

All MP is 'banked' from whatever source, at all times (during a turn). Otherwise you could not move more than 1 space, because when you spent 1, you have to be 'banking' the rest at that time.

There is absolutely zero indication that fatigue is any different. It explicitly says you can spend it as often as you like and as many times as you like, with not the slightest indication that you must use it on something in between the spending. How do you get 'pretty clear' from no indication at all?

You seem to be importing an idea from other games that has no relevance to this one?
 
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Bryan Lane
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also, look at it this way: if he had to spend the MP as soon as the fatigue was converted, he couldn't use fatigue to get out of the pit. You have to spend 2 MP to get out, but if you can't "bank" your MP when you convert your fatigue and you convert one at a time as per the rules, the sequence looks like this:

do I have 2 MP? no, I have none -> convert 1 fatigue to 1 MP
can I use my MP? no, I only have 1 and I'm in a pit. since I can't bank it, bye bye MP
do I have 2 MP? no, I have none -> convert 1 fatigue to 1 MP
can I use my MP? no, I only have 1 and I'm in a pit. since I can't bank it, bye bye MP
...etc.

so of course you can "bank" your MP, it's already what you're doing when you use fatigue to get out of a pit (which you don't seem to argue is possible). It's also what you're doing when you use an advance order to move/attack/move.
 
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Jeff Johnson
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Minedog3 wrote:
p.18 JittD rules
"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points."

Digitality wrote:


You're not spending fatigue to move out of the pit. You're spending fatigue for MP. The MPs do not need to be spent immediately. There's no indication that they must be.

In this instance 2 fatigue is spent for 2 movement points.


So what about the part where it says 1 fatigue for 1 MP. Not 2 fatigue or more for equal number of MP. This is EXACTLY what the rule says.


Are you skim reading? I've done the same in rules discussions in the past and ended up in a similar position as you are now. You've quoted the rule, emphasized one part of it, and then ignored the latter half of the same rule.

Corbon's already broken it down though. I do see how you've arrived at your conclusion, I just disagree with it.

The 1 fatigue for 1 movement point clause is there to affirm the conversion rate, not to act as a limiter. The sentences "This may be done as often as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this manner are spent just like normal movement points." should dispel any notion otherwise.
 
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Mark McG
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corbon wrote:


All MP is 'banked' from whatever source, at all times (during a turn). Otherwise you could not move more than 1 space, because when you spent 1, you have to be 'banking' the rest at that time.

There is absolutely zero indication that fatigue is any different. It explicitly says you can spend it as often as you like and as many times as you like, with not the slightest indication that you must use it on something in between the spending. How do you get 'pretty clear' from no indication at all?

You seem to be importing an idea from other games that has no relevance to this one?


OK, without continuing the argument, to which I defer to your judgement, my reasoning went like this.

Heros have Speed, and depending on their Action, Speed is converted into an allocation of MP. This was the only time I could see that MP accummulated. You are correct in that I'm importing this concept from other games in terms of an MP allowance.

My main issue was that MP have to be spent continuously on a Movement Action, so if an Action costs 2MP, the 2MP have to be spent sequentially, not 1MP on opening a chest, 2MP preparing to jump, another 1 MP to complete opening the chest, and a last 1MP to complete the jump. That is still my view, and in terms of using 'invested' which has become 'banked' this was what I was considering.

In terms of Fatigue use, the rule says one Fatigue = 1 MP. As you point out, this can be repeated many times. Now in looking at the rules on p.18 on using Fatigue for movement, I also looked at the rule for using Fatigue for combat, which for the sake of convenience I reproduce below. It seemed very similar in construction, and IS done one fatigue per one Black die at a time. This did effect my view of how Spending Fatigue on Movement should be read.

"Spending Fatigue for Attacks
After rolling an attack, a hero may spend one fatigue to
roll one additional power die, adding its result to the
roll. This may be done as often as the hero desires, one
die at a time."

So I did distinguish between the way Speed creates MP dependant on Action, and Fatigue adds MP (or what I perceived as just 1MP) in any circumstance. I still think it relevant because I think there are Skills and Feats that add Speed OR MP.

So however misconstrued, that was the logic I followed. Clearly I was the only one, and I defer to the concensus.
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Stephen Williams
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Minedog3 wrote:

My main issue was that MP have to be spent continuously on a Movement Action, so if an Action costs 2MP, the 2MP have to be spent sequentially, not 1MP on opening a chest, 2MP preparing to jump, another 1 MP to complete opening the chest, and a last 1MP to complete the jump. That is still my view, and in terms of using 'invested' which has become 'banked' this was what I was considering.


You are correct that MP cannot be spent "in pieces" to complete a single action. If you are opening a chest, you must spend 2 MP all at once to open the chest, if you are jumping (which can only be done if there's a pit in front of you, btw), you must spend 3 MP all at once.

Where you logic becomes at odds with the rules appears to be your assumption that the MP gained by fatigue must be spent immediately. This is not the case. Spending 2 fatigue to gain 2 MP does not require you to decide how those MP will be spent. The MP are added to your standard pool of MP until you decide to use them or your turn ends. You have 2 MP, you have not declared how they will be used. If the hero then decides to drink a potion, that is a movement action which costs 1 MP. The hero has 2 MP, so he can do that. Having drank the potion, he now spends another fatigue for 1 MP, which gets added to his pool. He then begins the movement action of climbing out of the pit, which requires 2 MP, and lucky him, that's exactly how much MP he has, so he spends both at once to climb out. The end.

The idea that a movement action cannot be interrupted mid-sequence is true, however, it's also true that the hero player in your example has not interrupted any movement actions.

Spending fatigue for MP is not the same as spending fatigue for extra dice on an attack. For one thing, spending fatigue for MP can only be done during your own hero's turn, while spending fatigue on an attack can be done for any attack you are allowed to make - even guard attacks which occur during the OL's turn. To claim that the rules for one of these things make any implication on the rules for the other is simply not correct.
 
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