Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Troyes» Forums » Rules

Subject: Procession: Manipulate dice to gain the advantage? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dave
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the rulebook appendix, the Procession states:

Quote:
The Procession offers 2 VPs to the player that has the most dice in his district of the city square (excluding the dice used to activate this card), taking the neutral player into account, as well. In the case of a tie, the tied players all gain 2VPs. You must have at least 1 die in your district in order to gain the 2 VPs.

The Procession activity calls for white dice with a divisor of four.

Our situation was this:

Orange had a white 4 and a red 4 left in his district. Green had a white 1 and a red 6. No one else had any dice remaining. It was Orange's turn.

Orange decided to hire a tradesman for the Process (3 VPs at game end) and activate it once. It was the last round, it seemed like a close game, and he suspected someone had Le Florentin (rewards for having lots of tradesmen).

He could've used his white 4 alone, but then the 2 VPs would've gone to solely Green who had more dice in his district (two versus Orange's one remaining). This action would've resulted in a net gain of 1 VP for Orange over Green (at game end since tradesmen are only scored then).

Instead, Orange decided to spend influence points to reroll his white 4 until it came out as 3 (he was flush with influence; still, it only required two rerolls). Then, he bought Green's white 1 for 4 denier and used both white dice to activate the Procession. Both Orange and Green got 2 VPs for having the most dice in their districts (one each). This action resulted in a net gain of 3 VPs for Orange over Green (again, at game end).

This seems legal; the only rules I see limiting dice rerolls are spending one influence point each time for each dice, and rerolling only before countering black dice or executing actions.

Assuming it is legal, then would a reroll in this case even be required? Could Orange simply have bought Green's white 1 and paired it with his white 4 to activate the Procession once, even though Green's white 1 didn't change the number of times the Procession activity was taken?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dlewis2 wrote:
Could Orange simply have bought Green's white 1 and paired it with his white 4 to activate the Procession once, even though Green's white 1 didn't change the number of times the Procession activity was taken?


Yes
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Redford
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, he could have used his 4 and the other player's 1, the total of 5 divided by 4 would have been rounded down to 1 activation of the card.

A group of dice is simply a group of dice, no dice are singled out for card/event activations. The only thing important is the total number.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After Alain stated that you can't take white dice to the Cathedral corresponding to columns that are already full, I actually have some doubt now as to whether you are allowed to include "extra" pips in your dice group like that.

If I were hosting a game I would rule that you can buy the die even though it doesn't give you any extra activations, but I'm not certain the designers would agree.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
After Alain stated that you can't take white dice to the Cathedral corresponding to columns that are already full, I actually have some doubt now as to whether you are allowed to include "extra" pips in your dice group like that.

I'm inclined to believe that constructing the Cathedral is a die-based action: each die acts individually. Therefore, a die that cannot perform its action wouldn't be allowed.

In the case of Procession--or any activity card--the dice combine pips and act together. So two dice whose total pips is 5 can execute Procession once (after dividing by 4).

I think this is consistent with Alain's response.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But the tactical intent of disallowing you from taking unusable dice to the Cathedral is that you can't add meaningless dice to your group just to burn the dice. I see no reason why adding meaningless dice to a pip-based group should necessarily be any different.

I could see the ruling going either way. I specifically asked in that other thread, but there was no response.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
But the tactical intent of disallowing you from taking unusable dice to the Cathedral is that you can't add meaningless dice to your group just to burn the dice. I see no reason why adding meaningless dice to a pip-based group should necessarily be any different.

I could see the ruling going either way. I specifically asked in that other thread, but there was no response.


You are required to pick a set of legal dice. Grabbing an unusable dice for the cathedral, (or using one of your own) is illegal if a spot does not exist for it.

The other die is usable, it just doesn't have any marginal value.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
You are required to pick a set of legal dice. Grabbing an unusable dice for the cathedral, (or using one of your own) is illegal if a spot does not exist for it.

It's only illegal because the designer has made a specific ruling that it's illegal. It sure looks like a legal set of dice for a Cathedral action to me, if I go only by the rulebook, which never says anything to hint that any group of 1-3 white dice might ever be illegal for a Cathedral action. The intent of the ruling is "you can't take dice just to waste them", so does that same intent apply to pip-based actions? I have no idea.

I've thought about this quite a bit and I'm still thoroughly unconvinced one way or the other.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
You are required to pick a set of legal dice. Grabbing an unusable dice for the cathedral, (or using one of your own) is illegal if a spot does not exist for it.

It's only illegal because the designer has made a specific ruling that it's illegal. It sure looks like a legal set of dice for a Cathedral action to me, if I go only by the rulebook, which never says anything to hint that any group of 1-3 white dice might ever be illegal for a Cathedral action. The intent of the ruling is "you can't take dice just to waste them", so does that same intent apply to pip-based actions? I have no idea.

I've thought about this quite a bit and I'm still thoroughly unconvinced one way or the other.


How is it a legal set of dice if you can't use that die because all spaces are occupied? No option is given in the rules how to handle using a die when there is no space to place a cube, which generally means it is illegal (if not stated).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
How is it a legal set of dice if you can't use that die because all spaces are occupied? No option is given in the rules how to handle using a die when there is no space to place a cube, which generally means it is illegal (if not stated).

You'd handle it the same way you handle excess pips on a conversion activity card if you can't afford or don't want to spend the conversion cost to the fullest extent allowed by your pips (which we know for certain is legal based on explicit ruling from Alain): by ignoring the extra. There is no distinction made in the rulebook between extra pips vs. extra dice that clearly makes one illegal and the other legal.

The only consistent intent I've observed is that Alain doesn't seem to want us to game the system by grabbing dice for no other purpose than to waste them, and that intent applies equally well to an unneeded 1-pip die on a pip-based action. I mean, look at this very thread: "Can I take a die for no purpose except to get rid of the die?" Again, I would not be surprised to see Alain rule either way.


edit: I've geekmailed Alain with a thread link. Hopefully he'll stop by to make a ruling.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate S
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ghorsche wrote:
edit: I've geekmailed Alain with a thread link. Hopefully he'll stop by to make a ruling.

And he responded:

Alain13 wrote:
the answer to your question is: Yes, you can !!!

It's the same for the events and the cards which effect is given by a divided by ..... You make a group of 1 to 3 die and you divise the amount of that group by the value of the divisor and you obtain the "effect" of your workers, even though if some workers have no added value.

So in your example, I can take a die with 1 and with 4 and use them for an action divided by 4.


So to the OP's original question, yes. It's legal to take a "wasted" die like this for a pip-based action.
6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.