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Subject: Why and when I bother... rss

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Moshe Callen
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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I hd in mind that this post would be a rant but frankly I'm not much of a ranting person and on the rare occasions that I do in fact rant I have to be thoroughly worked up about something. I'm just not at the moment, although I am perhaps mildly annoyed.

This post is one I intend to bookmark so that I can link to it when need be. I'm adressing no one in particular but if whoever reads this thinks it applies to them, perhaps they ought consider why they think that. What this posts attempts to describe is why I post in RSP (or elsewhere) and when and to what extent i am interested in carrying on a discussion.

1. I do not give the proverbial tinker's damn about proving myself "right". For academic work (which probably I ought be doing now) I compose scientific arguments and go over the fine details of the logic and the mathematics and the physics, etc. Yet frankly I love developing the research, not the arguing. So I am not going to invest take kind of time and effort on an internet debate, certainly not more than a few seconds of a google search and I won't bother reading over every little bit of whatever I link. Think of me as interesting in having the kind of political discussions one has at a cocktail party or with a bunch of guys hanging out shooting the breeze.

1a. Corollary to 1: If you want me to engage you in discussion act like a grown-up and make it worth my time. First, if you're insulting, condescending or whatever, I'venot going to bother arguing with you. Second, the discussion needs to be interesting. I'm relaxing on the internet and so need some reason to spend my time on the discussion. I don't need to prove either my intellect or my *ahem* manhood to anybody and, even if somehow I did, I'm not interesting in going through the motions of trying anyway.

2. If I have enough expertise on a subject to know you're clueless and that even the way you think about a subject is just wrong, I'm not going to bother. The two areas where this most often happens are physics and Judaism. Language discussions are rare but I could see it happening there and maybe, maybe with certain areas of history.
2a. I am not a rav but I do have a Jewish education On Judaism-- If the way you talk about the subject, interpret the subject and think about the subject is a Christian or other non-Jewish approach and you won't accept that your approach is not one that works in the context of Judaism, I'm not going to bother. The Jewish stereotype of Christian reasoning is that everybody's interpretation is equally valid and you can take any little quote and do what you want with it. I don't think that's actually true of Christianity but it's certainly not true of Judaism. If you quote at me the Christian Bible, I'm not going to feel it applies to me as a Jew. I'm not going to bother telling you why such a take is off because I would probably have to write a dissertation to be sufficiently thorough and I won't even translate because since I've worked as a professional document translator I don't translate for free.

If you have enough Jewish education for a basis of discussion then we can talk. Otherwise I'll tell you how it is Jewishly and I'm not interesting in some nitwit telling me what Jews "really" believe. On the other hand, I freely admit, I'm not a rav; I just happen to know a whole hell of a lot more about actual Judaism than some random person on the internet.

2b. Physics is not metaphysics. If you have a crackpot theory or a religious interpretation of physics, I don't care.

I'm sure there's more I could add but frankly I need to go to bed.
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Leo Zappa
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Certainly this was one of the more thoughtful and well-structured internet rants I've read in a while. Concise and considered, yet edgy with enough misspellings to indicate that a certain amount of raw emotion was coursing through your veins when you wrote it. Not that I'm a professional rant evaluator, but I'd score this a solid "B" as a rant. For me to award an "A", I would have needed to see more profanity, although you get kudos for use of "tinkers damn" as a seldom-used and mildly arcane profanity. Good show, Moshe!
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Aaron Potter
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Given that proposition 1a is immediately rendered hypocritical by the remainder of the text, particularly the opening of prop 2, that proposition 2a essentially declares that unless you already agree with him your arguments magically don't count, and, most importantly, prop 1 is demonstrated to be untrue by the very existence of the thread...

I give it a 'D' for effort.


Edit: and I *am* a professional rant evaluator.
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potterama wrote:
Given that proposition 1a is immediately rendered hypocritical by the remainder of the text, particularly the opening of prop 2, that proposition 2a essentially declares that unless you already agree with him your arguments magically don't count, and, most importantly, prop 1 is demonstrated to be untrue by the very existence of the thread...

I give it a 'D' for effort.


Edit: and I *am* a professional rant evaluator.


Unlike Moshe I do enjoy a little argument just for the sake of it every now and then, so I'll bite.

How is 1a hypocritical? "Don't waste my time and act like a reasonable individual," nothing objectionable there and I fail to see how he is failing to meet the standards being asked of others. There's nothing hypocritical about pairing that with 2, if anything they go hand in hand rather nicely. Your assessment of 2a is also lacking, he isn't saying that you have to agree with him but rather that if you're clearly coming from an external belief system, don't seem particularly well informed about his and refuse to recognize that there may be weaknesses in your understanding then the discussion probably isn't going to be very fruitful and thus probably isn't worth spending leisure time on. As for 1a, I'm pretty sure we're all taking turns at making blog posts in RSP so that gets a pass as well.

I'll give you a C for now, but will allow you the chance to write a follow up with the possibility of raising that grade to an A if sufficient effort and study of the text is seen.

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Aaron Potter
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The Message wrote:

How is 1a hypocritical?


whac3 wrote:
...if you're insulting, condescending or whatever...

is followed by the insultingly condescending declaration "If I have enough expertise on a subject to know you're clueless and that even the way you think about a subject is just wrong, I'm not going to bother..."

Quote:
Your assessment of 2a is also lacking, he isn't saying that you have to agree with him but rather that if you're clearly coming from an external belief system, don't seem particularly well informed about his and refuse to recognize that there may be weaknesses in your understanding then the discussion probably isn't going to be very fruitful and thus probably isn't worth spending leisure time on.


A pleasant interpretation not borne out by Whac3's actions in other threads, wherein when people have demonstrated significantly more references to Jewish authority than he has produced, he has simply declared them wrong on the basis of not following whatever sub-sub-sub-sub-form of Judaism he claims to profess. I'll revise up to a D+ if whac3 clarifies what Jewish authorities other than himself he'll recognize.

Still fails on the basis of prop 1 undercutting his entire post.





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Adrian Hague
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Not bad. Needs more aster*sks. whistle
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Clay
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potterama wrote:
The Message wrote:

How is 1a hypocritical?


whac3 wrote:
...if you're insulting, condescending or whatever...

is followed by the insultingly condescending declaration "If I have enough expertise on a subject to know you're clueless and that even the way you think about a subject is just wrong, I'm not going to bother..."


Eh... perhaps I'm being generous but I just see this as pretty basic interaction. If someone clearly has a very poor grasp on a topic few people would probably criticize an expert for choosing not to spend time trying to have any sort of dialogue with them. To take it to an extreme, say someone spouting off about how it's the motion of the liquid in a tank of gas that propels the car forward and a mechanic opting to just shake their hand and walk away. The only question really is at what point this becomes "condescending" in any meaningfully offensive sense. Given the nature of the likely topics that this would be relevant towards, I'm willing to lean towards the "he's just saving time for something that isn't a lost cause" side of the fence.

Quote:
Your assessment of 2a is also lacking, he isn't saying that you have to agree with him but rather that if you're clearly coming from an external belief system, don't seem particularly well informed about his and refuse to recognize that there may be weaknesses in your understanding then the discussion probably isn't going to be very fruitful and thus probably isn't worth spending leisure time on.


A pleasant interpretation not borne out by Whac3's actions in other threads, wherein when people have demonstrated significantly more references to Jewish authority than he has produced, he has simply declared them wrong on the basis of not following whatever sub-sub-sub-sub-form of Judaism he claims to profess. I'll revise up to a D+ if whac3 clarifies what Jewish authorities other than himself he'll recognize.[/q]

I'm not seeing any such articles referenced in your works cited.

Quote:

Still fails on the basis of prop 1 undercutting his entire post.



Alright, alright, I'll bite on this too.

How does this demonstrate a desire to prove himself right? It's not a list of beliefs, support for beliefs or any other conclusions that we might argue about here (Not "we" we, but in a more general sense. Clearly we'll argue regardless). It's more like personal posting guidelines and a brief glimpse at the rationale. There's no trophy for that.

You've got a B currently, but that citation slip up may cost some points if not rectified.
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This is far too proper to be a rant.
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Geosphere wrote:
This is far too proper to be a rant.
Go back and read it again after next thread about how Israel is unsettling world peace and committing war crimes by settling occupied territory, letting extremists treat the local population like subhumans, all based on a racist notion of being a selected people with divine rights given by a god that doesn't exist.

Disclaimer: This is directed towards the government of Israel and extremist parts of it population, and in no way directed against Jewish people at large. All humans have equal worth, and should acknowledge that as well.
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Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).
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Much like most holy books, you often have to shoot for the essence of what Steven is saying. Read the post, then search your heart.
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slowcorner wrote:
Much like most holy books, you often have to shoot for the essence of what Steven is saying. Read the post, then search your heart.


I'm not holy, I just leave doors open.
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).

Fine. I oubt you'll find I object.
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).

Fine. I oubt you'll find I object.


You'll not object to asking others to treat you by the saem rules?
 
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).

Fine. I oubt you'll find I object.


You'll not object to asking others to treat you by the saem rules?

Like what exactly?
 
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Quote:
First, if you're insulting, condescending or whatever, I'venot going to bother arguing with you.


Do you feel you follow this rule personally?
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).

Fine. I oubt you'll find I object.


You'll not object to asking others to treat you by the saem rules?

Like what exactly?


The rules you have laid out in the OP would be what I am thinking of, what else would I be refering to.
 
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fair enough its a free board. Of course I would expect you to ask others to do the same for you.

What does that mean?


That you will ask that these 'rules' are aplied to you by other users (after all you should never do to otehrs what you would not expect to be done to you).

Fine. I oubt you'll find I object.


You'll not object to asking others to treat you by the saem rules?

Like what exactly?


The rules you have laid out in the OP would be what I am thinking of, what else would I be refering to.

I don't see them as "rules" but explanations. OK then.
 
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Moshe Callen
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jonnylawless wrote:
Quote:
First, if you're insulting, condescending or whatever, I'venot going to bother arguing with you.


Do you feel you follow this rule personally?

I try but admit that I can reply back if provoked.
 
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From the 'Logical Reasoning About god thread':

whac3 wrote:
Consider the physical particle transition n^0-->e^- + p^+ +2y, i.e., a neutron decays to an electron, proton and two photons. I'm purposely using a very physical example. Now, we can certainly envisage this entire interaction without G-d involved. If we wish to apply the received tradition of how G-d interacts with the world, then the neutron does not exist separately from G-d but nether do the electron, proton and photons. The physical manifestation of G-d in the universe (how he appears to us) has changed; that is all. It's not governed by the physics which operates entirely independently.

whac3 wrote:
Spacetime is composed of mass-energy but G-d is not except insofar as spacetime is a physical manifestation of G-d that is somewhat but not entirely separate from G-d.


whac3 wrote:
2b. Physics is not metaphysics. If you have a crackpot theory or a religious interpretation of physics, I don't care.
whistle
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Not bad. Needs more aster*sks. whistle


as in "tinker's ****" ?
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okiedokie wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
Not bad. Needs more aster*sks. :whistle:


as in "tinker's ****" ?


Can Tinkers fly?
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Moshe Callen
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AdrianPHague wrote:
From the 'Logical Reasoning About god thread':

whac3 wrote:
Consider the physical particle transition n^0-->e^- + p^+ +2y, i.e., a neutron decays to an electron, proton and two photons. I'm purposely using a very physical example. Now, we can certainly envisage this entire interaction without G-d involved. If we wish to apply the received tradition of how G-d interacts with the world, then the neutron does not exist separately from G-d but nether do the electron, proton and photons. The physical manifestation of G-d in the universe (how he appears to us) has changed; that is all. It's not governed by the physics which operates entirely independently.

whac3 wrote:
Spacetime is composed of mass-energy but G-d is not except insofar as spacetime is a physical manifestation of G-d that is somewhat but not entirely separate from G-d.


whac3 wrote:
2b. Physics is not metaphysics. If you have a crackpot theory or a religious interpretation of physics, I don't care.
whistle

Exactly, I wasn't talking physics here. I'm saying that the physics and the religion are talking about two entirely different vews of what is going on.
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